Hi Guys, I'm in the market for a Celica GT4 preferably the ST185 model and if possible a Carlos Sainz model.

I plan to buy a tired one and re-build the engine with few more horses.
What i need to know is what exactly have other people done on thier re-builds to get between 250 and 300hp? What base did they start from and most important cost!!!

I've had a ST185 before and lets face it they dont light up the road with speed these days compared to impreza's for eg (have a type r aswell but love the GT4's) so i want my one to be up there in that hp range....

budget would be about 3-4000 taking about 1000 to buy a project car...

James

Not a complete list but as a start a hybrid turbo, injectors, different ECU, down pipe and exhaust. You might be able to get 250 with a downpipe, exhaust, hybrid and 1 bar of boost on a good engine. For much more you'll need the ECU.

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GT4DC Events Co-ordinator
1996 ST205 UK

Swap a gen 3 engine in and be done with it. Maybe upgrade the clutch to a gen 3 one while your at it.
This is in my opinion the most cost effective way to get around 300 hp.
You can also sell the gen 2 engine to get some funds back.

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ST185 CS #1845

Mike is pretty much spot on.

250 is pretty easy. 280 plus is much more difficult.

The limit of the stock injectors is around 280-290 bhp with safe operation (it will do more but you are ragging the injectors!).

Assuming you have simple breathing mods such as remove cat and a decent exhaust the main works would be using a metal head gasket. You will need to uprate turbo slightly as well to either a ST205 turbo (good for 320 ish bhp) or a very mild hybrid such as 46 or 48 trim wheel (for these dont go mad and get the biggest hybrid you can that can do 400bhp as at 300bhp it will be a pig!).

With a standard ST185 you will need to fit a front mount intercooler. With a CS/Rc the water to air intercooler will do 280-300bhp no problem on road but will need upgrading for hard track use.

If you want to push past 280 bhp then your best bet is to drop in ST205 injectors with a decent ECU to control them (starts to get expensive - say £700-£1000 for ecu plus £400-£600 for fitting & mapping). At this point you might as well drop in a set of ST205 or ST162 or ST182 cams as well as they are readily available & cheap.

Not much else actually needs doing to the engine - a standard St205 engine will easily see 300bhp with a boost increase so is another option.

Keep us posted on how you get on

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JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

Good call by Pinjo

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Kris
95 ST205 - slept for 10 years, now waking up...
Avensis
http://www.gtfours.co.uk
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Turbocharging - the replacement for displacement

Thanks for the idea's lads...I like the idea of dropping in a st205 engine as this would be a better base to start from and only would need slight modification to get where i want to be...

Next point is whats involved in this swap? will i need to change the loom? take it mounts/gearbox/drive shafts all are same??

Mechanically the 205 engine is a straight swap, although it doesn't achieve a massive amount other than a metal head gasket, better oil filter location, slightly better cams and allow the use of a standard 205 ECU (in theory).
There is a theory that the 185 pistons are tougher and less prone to ringland failure but I'm not sure there's much in it. If you have an air-air 185, then it's probably easier & cheaper to plumb a FMIC than try to get a water radiator & pump in & working.

The tough part is sorting the electrical side of it. Swapping engine loom seems the normal option but the pinouts of the body - engine looms are completely different and I've yet to see the data to be able to make the adaptation. The one I've witnessed, we were unable to get the speedo working, or even the speed input of the ECU. We were also unable to get fans working.

In my case, I kept the 185 loom and used an aftermarket ECU to handle the different engine. With hindsight, a 185 engine would have been just as good as a base as I have 800cc injectors and aftermarket cams.

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If at first you don't suck seed, try drier grain.

For a diffwerent take

Shocks, springs, uprated ARB, polybushes say 1500
Injectors, mappable ECU and "dunny door swinging in the breeze" conversion say another 1500
Brake upgrade say 1500 for top of the line
Leaving you 500 for a frontmount and general service/repair

Power is nothing without control and control don't help when you're in the hedge at the second corner

IMHO it depends if you want to have fun or be fast.

Fast - as steve said.
Fun needs more power than control in my book

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JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

I know some will hate me for saying this but wouldn't it be a lot easier to just buy an ST205 which has everything you need? I've probably done more track days than I've had hot dinners in both stock and modified spec so I have the T shirt

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Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp

Better tell Steve to get his pinny on then!

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JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

i started with a non runner RC project , cost £4K++ to date, not including purchase cost, and lots more to spend...each year in year out



James,


Save yourself a whole load of ball ache and time and money and just buy this: http://www.gt4oc.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=129640




Its got all the gucci bits, the big brakes, coilovers, Link G4 storm ECU, hybrid turbo, fmic, st205 engine and it is a Carlos Sainz in the best colour , with the best wheels!

^^^ That car must have cost inexcess of £10K to build while in Brendans ownership








or i have a rusty silled white CS non runner forged engine project for sale In Salisbury, Wilts. Come on over and make me an offer

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ST165 turbo 4WD
ST185 GT-FOUR RC Carlos Sainz Limited Edition 825•5000
ST185 turbo 4WD Carlos Sainz Limited Edition 2541•5000

Uhhh while thats very tempting i really want a red one! I have a AE86 GT Twincam Corolla aswell and she's white so i'm trying my best to stick it out for a red one...!! dont hate me!

Apart from that thats perfect, love the wheels aswell.

Going with a st205 to start with did cross my mind alright but i've had a st202 before and i want to go back that bit further for the st185 shape this time. i think they are the nicest shape Celica by far....

I know i'll end up pumpin way more money than i want if i go for st185 and re-build but what can ya do!!!

Red CS/RC st185 it is.....now just need someone to come up with one for good money!!!

That is a great looking ST185.

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GT4DC Events Co-ordinator
1996 ST205 UK

The CS/RC is a much better base to start. The chargecooler should be good enough for your power goals, plus the bonnet and bumper provide much better airflow/cooling.
IMO you will save the extra money for the car, plus it will be worth more if you sell.

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If at first you don't suck seed, try drier grain.