Hi folks,

As part of my engine build I am looking at options for the fueling system as a possible phase 2 of my project.

My final goal is for about 360hp and I don't feel comfortable using the stock fuel system this far.

I know that common options are the sard 800's. Would these be fitted into the standard fuel rail or is a different rail required?

I already have a Walboro 255lph pump that I plan to use and I haven't decided on engine management yet. Just wanted to get some thoughts on the injectors and pressure regulator.

Thanks

_________________
GT4DC Events Co-ordinator
1996 ST205 UK

These are a direct fit in the OEM fuel rail:

Brand: SARD
Product: Fuel Injectors Set - 800cc High Toyota Celica MR2 3S-GTE
Part Num: 63564 (x4)

Set Includes:
- 4x Injectors

SPECIFICATION:
Feed Type: Side

Flow Rate: 800cc
Impedance: High
Number of Spray: 2
Color coupler: Tea
Coupler Geometry: Ellipse
Lag time: 1.60msec

COMPATIBILITY NOTES:
- Only for Turbo vehicles

I understand the the OEM Fuel Pressure Regulator increases the fuel pressure as boost rises but I'm not sure how this is controlled. If you fit an aftermarket FPR how is this type of control maintained? Is it automatic from the ECU?

Theres a useful thread here: http://www.gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=344

_________________
Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp

Sard 800s are only denso injectors in a different frock so doubtless you could buy them direct if you knew the right part number (which I don't)

As far as fuel rails go the stock item will be ok at that kind of level. If you want to do a real future proof system then I would look up a 215 caldina fuel rail (probably hard to find though) as it is a much better fuel rail with a decent bore
Its not worth forking out millions on a Wolfkatz type setup for your use imo.
I would look to a decent Aeromotive FPR and ditch the stock one. Just make sure you get one that,s got the boost pressure controlled fuel pressure control - will be marketed as a turbo specific version

Given your penchant for track days and general weekend hoonery I would also consider a fuel swirl pot. I think there's room in the fuel tank area to fit one without having to worry about boxing in internal sections of the car. Something to talk to Jon about next time you're up that way

Thanks for the comments.

I have had a look around for info on the Denso part numbers but have turned up nothing, only references to the Sard ones.

I will put the aeromotive FPR on the shopping list.

_________________
GT4DC Events Co-ordinator
1996 ST205 UK

IMO, I think injectors, fuel pump (which you have already) and an ecu (replacement [Blitz, SARD, ..], piggy back or standalone) to control the fuelling is all that's needed.

I base this on the fact that on my std internal engine, with std fuel rail and injectors, std fpr, uprated fuel pump, SARD "plug-n'play" ECU and aftermarket boost controller (running 1.3 bar), I got c363bhp.
(imo, that was pushing it to the limit albeit the afr line on the graph was spot on.)

Buying the right parts is essential in what you want to achieve initially but also as far as future proofing is concerned - this is particularly the case with ecu choice.

I think all you need is:
SARD (Denso) 800cc injectors;
Apexi PFC (based on local knowledge of this unit )

HTH

_________________
Vice Chairman
1990 White UK Celica ST185 - Project DTM
1997 Cream BMW R1200C (as seen in James Bond "Tomorrow Never Dies")
2005 Jaguar X-type 3.0 Sovereign AWD Automatic
Blood Bikes - https://www.freewheelers.org.uk/

Agreed

Stick with the stock rail and FPR - it works, it fits and it's reliable

Shopping list...
Injectors - SARD 800cc as per the above recommends



Sard 800cc Injectors
> Low impedance injector 2.7Ω, (540cc 205 injector 2.8Ω)
> Part number 63517
> Flow rate 800cc/min
> Lag time - 0.75ms. (Stock 205 injector lag time - 0.56ms)
>Direct replacement i.e. drop in with no wiring alterations required, simply plug into the stock wiring loom

_________________
Kris
95 ST205 - slept for 10 years, now waking up...
Avensis
http://www.gtfours.co.uk
_______________________________________
Turbocharging - the replacement for displacement

Is that 360 fly or wheels?

if fly the 550's will do that.

Im running 300hp on 440's for years....

They will be at a very high duty cycle (too high!)

_________________
Kris
95 ST205 - slept for 10 years, now waking up...
Avensis
http://www.gtfours.co.uk
_______________________________________
Turbocharging - the replacement for displacement

caution - information provided by Don may (will not without lots of buggeration) not be suitable for your car Mike!

Kris has posted the correct part number for the SARD 800cc that just "drop in" without any other mods.

The ones Don suggested are high impedance which require the removal of the injector resistor pack, relatively easily done but not required if you buy the right part.

You can run 540cc injectors to around 360bhp but it is suggested for safety to only run injectors up to about 80% duty cycle (read - they are open for 80% of the time and hence have their coils energised for 80% of the time and can burn out/become stuck which is really not good for your engine!).

My suggestions are to just upgrade your injectors and ensure you have a new pump (uprated a little such as a walbro will not hurt).

You can read my thoughts on FPR in the linked thread. I am fitting one (I have bought 2 for some reason!) to project Arsey, the primary reason is that I needed/wanted to monitor fuel pressure as a safety cut-off mechanism for the ECU (ECU can kill engine if fuel pressure or oil pressure drops).

ST205 fuel rail is fine - ST185 is not but then it doesn't fit the st205 head anyway (it is much smaller internal diameter)

Steve has a valid point regarding swirl pot but I would look into the implications of this as it may that bit too far for a road car.

So
SARD 63517 800cc low impedance injectors
Uprated pump
Power Fc or similar fully programmable ECU.
Wideband lambda sensor

NOTE:- for mapping purposes I believe it will have to be done without a cat to obtain accurate AFR readings without the effect of the cat.

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

I also run the sard 63517 in my wolfkatz rail (ST185). I bought these so I could also reuse my 440's. Direct fit.

I don't run a aftermarket fpr, just linked the oem fuelrelay to stay in High mode.
But I have a standalone ecu.

Running 280 @ the wheels now, and a duty cycle of 55-60% max(walbro 255).
I don't really need the 800's, but they were new and not almost 20years old for safety.

_________________
ST185 CS #1845

There is a small vac pipe from the manifold to FPR. The FPR then maintains a constant pressure differential above this so the injectors always have the same pressure across them.

Aftermarket ones normally also have this manifold pressure feed to work in the same way.

_________________
If at first you don't suck seed, try drier grain.

It will be 360 ish at the fly. However I disagree with your assessment, I believe that at that level of power the standard 550's will be running at an undesirably high duty cycle and especially at 16 years old I do not want to jeopardise the safety of my new forged engine.

I could have the 550's properly cleaned and flow tested however once I have gone to the lengths of taking them out I will just replace them with 800's

Thanks to others for the input.

_________________
GT4DC Events Co-ordinator
1996 ST205 UK

Thanks to Chris for the explanation of the vacuum controlled rising rate fuel pressure. According to the Aeromotive info fuel pressure rises on a 1:1 ratio with boost. The OEM fuel pressure regulator looks puny by comparison in the pic!

The Sard 800 injectors I have are indeed Part No. 63517 but there is nothing in the Japanese info sheet that I can see confirms they are low impedance. It does seem strange that the injector advert info I posted earlier for Sard 800's didn't mention the high impedance problem.

_________________
Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp

how much did you pay for your injectors?
see here:
http://www.celica-club.co.uk/forum/inde ... the-3sgte/

I would be interested in this deal you are setting up. I'm not a member of the celiac club though.

_________________
GT4DC Events Co-ordinator
1996 ST205 UK