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 Post subject: FMIC research
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Group N

Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:29 am
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Location: Up North
Car Model: ST205
As I have decided to go FMIC (About time I hear some of you say "Caca" :lol: ) I thought I would do a bit of research before hand.

After many hours of scouring the internet a couple of intercoolers have stood out above the rest....so peoples opinions would be good :thumbsup:

The first FMIC is one by a company called "Arc" they have a great end tank design, and they have very dense internal & external fins

http://www.tunersgroup.com/Online_Store ... e_R34.html

Also a company called Buscher

End tank designs dont look so hot.

https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalo ... ts_id=1179

Full race are a touch on the expensive side but the end tank design on this one looks spot on

http://www.full-race.com/store/intercoo ... ooler.html

AMS have by far the best quality looking FMIC, it looks superb. End tank design looks good.

http://blog.amsperformance.com/2010/02/18/nica’s-2010-genesis-2-0t-r-spec-build-update-2/

I havnt even looked at pipework yet....but I will want to design it so that it looks factory..no bling

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:21 pm
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In terms of end tanks;

ARC > Full Race > Buscher > AMS

100% honest, the end tanks on that AMS one look ebaytactular.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:14 am 
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Have you considered getting the intercooler made rather than buying off the shelf? The problem with most of the stuff in the catalogues is that they are made using cheap and nasty cores which can be terribly inefficient heat exchangers. The end tanks are easier to assess as the workmanship (or lack of it) is more obvious.

You might have seen I got Bob Hall at Concept Racing (http://www.conceptracing.co.uk/) to make up the intercooler for my track toy. He really knows his stuff and its not as expensive as you might expect. Worth giving him a call.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:18 am 
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Group N

Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:29 am
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Location: Up North
Car Model: ST205
I am in deed planning on making my own..just looking for inspiration and some help on design.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:08 am 
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WRC

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:14 pm
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Location: sunny sleaford- lincolnshire
Car Model: ST205
same goes for Forge Motorsport, my brother and i share the same core design and even at 2.1bar on a 3071 it kept his intakes as cool as 20degrees on a hot day.

They said to me i could have any end tanks made up too so many routes you could go


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Talk to Diceman on here....
He's been there and done it and has done A LOAD of research :wink:

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Last edited by Muddy Water on Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:32 pm
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Location: The Netherlands
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dale wrote:
same goes for Forge Motorsport, my brother and i share the same core design and even at 2.1bar on a 3071 it kept his intakes as cool as 20degrees on a hot day.

They said to me i could have any end tanks made up too so many routes you could go


Is that on a GT4?

Which model do you use?

Is there a Back-to-back test somewhere? I only use my GT4 on the street.
I have a EVO5 ic laying here to go on, but I always ave doubts. :roll:
But Mixer has a nice power out of his EVO core.
So, what to do?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:44 pm
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Location: Aldershot,Hampshire
Car Model: ST205
mr.barry did a lot of research into this and his fmic was custom made with special end tanks

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:54 pm 
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WRC

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:14 pm
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Location: sunny sleaford- lincolnshire
Car Model: ST205
yeah on a gt4 mate, the temps where logged by dave when it was being mapped.

i personally would go forge but then thats because i have one and never believed in putting something on a 400bhp gt4 that someone had taken off for a 400bhp evo.

makes us gt4 owners look like poorpers that will buy anything.

They work well by all accounts though for sure, just i prefer a new core is all


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:22 pm 
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ST185pinjo wrote:
dale wrote:
Is there a Back-to-back test somewhere? I only use my GT4 on the street.
I have a EVO5 ic laying here to go on, but I always ave doubts. :roll:


me too. Also I hate the way current pipe works are for the four.
Nial if you do end up designing one, I'd like to take it into production.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:50 pm 
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I did spend a load of time on this and designed a lovely end tank for my ST185 that would fit perfectly with intended pipework locations (where they would fit without butchering). I then proceeded to get prices for it....

Most companies can't/will not make nice smooth flowing end tank designs as a custom job as they just don't have the skill to fabricate. Bob Hall that Don used will as will Docking engineering. Pace/Forge/Radtec/Allard etc will not touch it and will only make them formed from sections of flat ally.

The price of the docking engineering was far too high to consider for a road car (IIRC it was £1500-£2000 ish). Antipodean Bob was not known about when I did mine but he is more reasonable but still expensive.

As such I redesigned a best fit flat ally end tank that was based around a Forge standard core and the custom design cost no more than a regular IC. (Around £400 from memory). The forge end tanks look very similar to the Buscher IC

Image

IMHO for a core I would be looking at a tube & fin as opposed to a bar & plate. Much lighter and dependant on the fin density can provide better cooling for a given cross section without much undue pressure drop. The airflow is also blocked more by a bar & plate so airflow to the rad will be reduced.

End tank design. It just must be smooth and allow slow air expansion/redirection to the whole core. Otherwise you may as well just use a smaller core.
At peak power (assuming around 400bhp) the air in the pipe hitting the core will be travelling around 200mph - it really doesn't want to change direction and the majority of the ebay type cores will only use a small section of the core due to poor end tank design, the rest of the core will just act as a thermal mass.

Dan did some CFD modelling of end tanks (but I don't think modelled any turbulators and found that most of the core will be redundant without good end tank design. It would therefore having a higher pressure drop reducing BHP and the air will spend less time in contact with the turbulators due to velocity so will cool less.

A couple of simple things you can do to help is to expand the entry/exit pipe prior to IC connection and enlarge the IC connection sizes. Have the connections central to the IC core. Consider using internal air deflection plates within the end tank to try and equalise the flow across the core face.

The products you have shown have a mixture of cast end tanks and fabricated from flat plate. The cast will make it easier (and cheaper for bulk manufacture) to provide a smooth entry/exit but will add a fair bit of weight, the flat plate end tanks will be what 99% of custom ICs will be provided with.

The standard Skyline core is quite a nice design and was just a bit too big to fit a ST185 but the ST205 allows a wider intercooler to be used due to pipework run locations so may be worth considering.

Personally I think the Evo core looks badly suited when fitted to a GT4 as the pipes have to bend much more than required with a good design.

As a guide it is also worth measuring the cross section of the standard water to air intercooler and looking inside at the core make up. Most of it is air way as the cross flow water ways are very narrow when compared to a air-to-air heat exchanger. Additionally the cross section is much larger than most air-to-air coolers.

The more I looked into it the more I thought that most aftermarket intercoolers are possibly worse for flow than the standrad water to air on the ST205. (they will cool better long term though).

I had an easy job as upgrading a ST185 intercooler is not difficult!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:27 pm 
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good post JP 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Group N

Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:29 am
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Location: Up North
Car Model: ST205
yellowchinaman wrote:
ST185pinjo wrote:
dale wrote:
Is there a Back-to-back test somewhere? I only use my GT4 on the street.
I have a EVO5 ic laying here to go on, but I always ave doubts. :roll:


me too. Also I hate the way current pipe works are for the four.
Nial if you do end up designing one, I'd like to take it into production.


That sounds like a possible collaboration.

Meanwhile, I'm off to learn metal forming and panel beating :D

I was thinking about carbon fibre end tanks but when it comes to connecting the end tanks to the core I ran out of ideas, so I scraped that idea. I am going to come up with a shape that not only fits the car, but I can make out of flat sheet beaten into nice curves and welded together a bit like a jigsaw.

As for routing the pipework, my biggest problem is where to go without making the route longer than the M6......if you take a look at the picture bellow, just bellow the headlight is a plate, I dont know how much strength this gives to the car but would it cope with having a 3" hole in the middle of it and a short section of pipe welded in to try to maintain the strength?????

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:21 pm 
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Car Model: ST205
Also how big does the core have to be? is there a way of working out the correct size?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:14 pm
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Location: sunny sleaford- lincolnshire
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boost, power , use all affect and the type of core, dont beleive all the crap on ebay likes of "can handle 600+ BHP!!"

Yeah and at what intake temps and drops will it see, i cant comment on a formula as i dont know but my size appears to work well for both my brother and i, i see minimal lag issues with great cooling still.


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