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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:17 pm 
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I've just begun to design some of the electrical system of my pending build and am wondering about the legality for use on UK roads of a "race dash" setup. I am designing this to be a hybrid road/track car, so by this term I mean the original gauge cluster being removed and replaced by a digital LCD unit, the steering column stalks and ignition barrel being removed and replaced by switches, buttons and LED units on a bespoke dash panel and the fuse box being replaced by breakers on the dash. I have no experience of this whatsoever and therefore no clue as to whether or not this would be considered road legal. Any pointers appreciated!

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:08 pm 
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As far as I'm aware, you need a means of reading vehicle speed (may need to be readable in direct sunlight) and you also need an odometer - i.e. a non-resettable miles counter.

Some useful info on this thread -

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6240

This is one of the better known 'race dash' type setups, which uses an old fashioned needle type for the main indication.

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:32 pm 
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I don't think an odometer is a legal requirement per se. But I think you would have issues come sale time as it will obviously have unknown mileage which will deter a lot of buyers

However the new MOT sheets and the computer system might take offense come test time - you might be able to shoot the DVLA a question to clarify that

An odoureater on the other hand is a legal requirement in cars owned by me :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 6:15 pm 
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The main digital dash unit I was considering was a MoTeC one which will (sorry, should :shock: ) integrate flawlessly with the (MoTeC) ECU I'm using. If legal, I'd like to have no dials for the speedo or tach and minimal dial gauges in general - almost everything I need to be able to see at a glance is shown on the ADL3 although at this early stage I'm not sure how programing one function as an odometer would be done with it. The only things I might include small dial gauges for are oil temp, water temp and boost pressure. As you can tell, it's really early days for my dash design but I'm trying to get an idea of what's required to get a pass come MOT time before I settle on any one layout or system.

The hybrid LCD & needle dash unit is nice, but I just can't get away from the all out versatility via programming of the ADL3:

Image

And yes, I know it's ******* expensive, but it ticks all the boxes and then some. I think it'd be worth every penny.

As far as unknown mileage goes, that shouldn't be an issue because I'll be starting at zero again when the engine is built. For all intents and purposes it will be a brand new engine. "Come sale time" isn't in any of my plans either, although I know how these things sometimes go :roll:

I'll see about getting in touch with the DVLA regarding the non-resettable odometer. Obviously with the ADL3 you can program and reset anything you want, so if that's the case my grand plan for an all digital dash will be shot to pieces.

Nibbles wrote:
Some useful info on this thread -

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6240


I've been following your dash thread closely Nibbles and from one EE to (presumably) another, I have to say you're doing a brilliant job! It looks extremely promising and something I would jump at in a heartbeat were it not for the simplicity of integrating the ADL3 with my Motec ECU.

two_OH_five wrote:
An odoureater on the other hand is a legal requirement in cars owned by me :lol:


LOL :D

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 Post subject: Re: Road Legality of
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 7:36 pm 
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two_OH_five wrote:

An odoureater on the other hand is a legal requirement in cars owned by me :lol:


Especially on the way home from a curry meet.

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 7:37 pm 
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After a quick bit of googling I found this fairly recent thread (on a caravan forum - the shame :oops: - forgive me) which states the following:

Quote:
There is no legal requirement for the odometer to be correct and to actually alter the setting of the new one may leave yourself open to accusations of clocking. It would be better just to record the fact that the instrument panel has been changed in the service history book with the readings of the old and new one overstamped by the dealer.

When you come to sell the car you should make no statement whatsoever about the mileage of the vehicle even if you know the correction to apply, just draw attention to the entry in the service history and let the buyer do the calculation. There are two offnces involved, the act of clocking to defraud (which I am not suggesting in this case) and quoting an incorrect mileage.

This last one is a bit odd because there is no "knowingly" involved. An offence has been commited if a figure quoted in the description of the vehicle is wrong even if the seller does not actually know it is wrong. It is also why you should aviod stating a precise mileage but limit it to "about" the the nearest thousand or 1/2 even if you know it to be correct. Stating "the odometer reads XXXXXXX" avoids claiming that is the real mileage.


So it does seem that I'm in good shape as far as the odometer goes - I just need to keep the book well updated on what's been changed regarding the mileage and clock changes etc etc (I'm going to need a lot of pages in the service book :lol:)

Anyone have anything to add as far as the rest goes? Things which affect the driveability like a three position rocker switch for indicators instead of a three position stalk on the steering column, and the same thing for wiper and lights operation etc?

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Looking closely at the motec one, it looks like a custom 7 segment/bargraph LCD and not a graphic one so you may find it rather limiting.

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 8:40 pm 
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Yes I'm aware that you are limited to a certain number of items of information on screen at any one time with the 7 seg. LCD, but what I like about it is that you can have multiple screens set up on it for different information displays. For example with needle gauges for oil temp, water temp and boost pressure mounted on the centre console and visible at a glance, I can program the dash LCD to display only the 3 next most important data channels such as AFR, inlet pressure, exterior ambient temperature etc. The 13 character line on the bottom of the display (pictured above/previous page) can show three lines of data from three data channels at a time, and can be scrolled horizontally or vertically as desired with a steering wheel mounted toggle. With the correct programming, you can display data in logical groups for ease of reading whilst driving:

Temperatures could be grouped and displayed together;

Gearbox oil temp, ambient external temp, inlet temp.

Fuel data could be on a single screen;

Fuel pressure, AFR, fuel level.

And so on. Yes, in some ways it's a little restrictive, but it's a lot less restrictive than a lot of the other available systems like the "seemingly similar, but really not similar under the skin" Race-Technology Dash 2. As far as not being graphic goes, at the price of this LCD unit I dread to think what an actual graphic programmable TFT display unit would cost :shock:

Still, the big question of the thread is am I going to get a pass stamp on my book when I try to MOT this thing with a racing dash in place of factory controls? Anyone else on the DC have any experience of this? Surely someone else has a 'Four with a less than standard dash? I know I'm going to have to pass my project through an IVA test as a rebuilt vehicle, so all of these details matter.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:17 pm 
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The ADL3 is probably overkill for you and is eye-wateringly expensive even for a MoTeC. A more cost effective option is the MoTeC CDL3 dash which integrates directly with MoTeC ECU's and other components. The AIM MXL Pro5 does much the same and links directly to MoTeC. It includes integrated user programmable shift and warning lights. The processing and maths functions are not included but you may not need those? I have an MXL which is surplus to requirements. Drop me a PM if you are interested.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:56 am 
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I have the ADL3 unit to go with my motec ECU - but if i was to do it again id just save lots of £££ by buying a MXL unit.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:57 pm 
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All you need is the Speedo, another company for you is Dakota Digital in Colorado. Send them your instrument binnacle and inform you what digital gauges you want and they'll do the rest. Their gauges are accurate but being an american company get looked over obviously. Other that the usual come to mind Stack etc etc. There was also a company in the UK which did bespoke digital Binnacles but cant remember what the compnay is called 'doh' but i will have a gander and see if i can dig them up as by my memory they were very reasonably priced


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:03 pm 
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TrackToyFour wrote:
The ADL3 is probably overkill for you and is eye-wateringly expensive even for a MoTeC. A more cost effective option is the MoTeC CDL3 dash which integrates directly with MoTeC ECU's and other components. The AIM MXL Pro5 does much the same and links directly to MoTeC. It includes integrated user programmable shift and warning lights. The processing and maths functions are not included but you may not need those? I have an MXL which is surplus to requirements. Drop me a PM if you are interested.

You may be right, the ADL3 might turn out to be overkill in the long run, and "eye-wateringly expensive" is a very good way to put it. I've looked over the CDL3 and compared it to the ADL3 and I can see some features missing which I either need and/or want to have on the car. The MXL seems more suitable but does still seem to lack some features. Whether the features that the ADL3 has make it worthwhile spending the massive extra amount of money on it has yet to be seen, I need to sit down and compare both very carefully before I make a decision. I might have bought the spare MXL that you have at the moment if I thought it would make it into a car in the next 12 months, but that’s almost certainly not going to happen, so thanks for the offer but I’ll let it go to someone who can make use of it in the near future.

johnyboy1976 wrote:
I have the ADL3 unit to go with my motec ECU - but if i was to do it again id just save lots of £££ by buying a MXL unit.


Are you saying that because you don’t make full use of all the functions which the ADL3 has, or because you feel the extra functions aren’t worth the larger price tag that it costs over the MXL (or both)?

duncansharp76 wrote:
All you need is the Speedo, another company for you is Dakota Digital in Colorado. Send them your instrument binnacle and inform you what digital gauges you want and they'll do the rest. Their gauges are accurate but being an american company get looked over obviously. Other that the usual come to mind Stack etc etc. There was also a company in the UK which did bespoke digital Binnacles but cant remember what the compnay is called 'doh' but i will have a gander and see if i can dig them up as by my memory they were very reasonably priced

I was planning on removing the stock binnacle altogether and replacing it with a single unit – I want to get as much functionality in one unit as I can so the dash doesn’t end up looking like the instrument panel of an aeroplane! Thanks for the info though, I’ll keep these companies in mind.

What I definitely can't seem to find out about any of these data logging systems, from manufacturer websites or manuals, is whether or not they support a single channel being used as an odometer. By that I mean a channel which can record distance but cannot be reset on the unit, only when plugged into a computer for programming. Do you have any idea Johnny, or does your track only machine with the ADL3 in it have no need for an odometer?

I already foresee a problem with completing a project like mine which will be developed over a long period of time - I'll need to spent a lot of money on certain things upfront to get the features that I will want to use at a later stage. Welcome to the “joys” of building road legal track cars, eh? :/

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:14 pm 
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It may be worth having a look round the kit car world for info as many of them run 'aftermarket' dashes.
e.g.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/

The 'digidash' setup I'm developing will have odometer function as at some stage I will probably do a 'dash replacement' option. It won't run directly with Motec though unless they use standard OBD2 format or their data formats are known.

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:55 pm 
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simply because i could have saved around £2K by buying something that does exactly same things just without the name & price tag associated with Motec.
TBF the kit i got should have been closer to £5K retail!! but i was able to pay it off monthly so wasnt such a big hit in the pocket

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Hi Matt,

Do you have any outline of your requirements from the dash? In addition to what you've already stated in terms of legality, I'm thinking of datalogging, number of channels etc.

Also you mention IVA test - what are you planning as it must be really quite radical to end with needing an IVA test?

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