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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:17 pm 
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I wouldn't be surprised if ducting the charge cooler rad off of the lower grill actually increased airflow to the main rad

The turbulent air trying not to go trough the cc must interfere with airflow that doesn't even hit the cc rad. Then the whole tumbling mess has, in most cases, to try and fight its way through the ac rad before it even gets to the water rad
Frankly I'm amazed that the air has enough will to live to even bother with the main water rad. If it were me I'd fall out the back of the ac cooler and just collapse into a battered and bruised pool at the bottom of the gap between them :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Adding WI and or larger charge cooler capacity is all extra weight and complexity in my book.

As has been said the standard chargecooler flows enough for 400bhp but does not have the long term cooling capacity to sustain high load driving for very long.

Water injection will lose you power unless you run more boost/advance thereby negating the safety aspect of it. As a band aid for a standard road based engine running near to its knock limit it has a place. If you are having a forged engine built then get it built for your intended boost limit and apply a good sensible cooling method for the charge air in the form of a well designed front mount (read as - not an ebay special). Additionally if you are building a race car and can afford to factor in engine rebuilds in the pursuit for ultimate power then WI also has a place. Otherwise adopt a reliable sustainable means of charge cooling and worry less.

I assume you are going GT3071 and a Gt2071 was a typo ;-) as such the turbo is offset and running the charge cooler results in a nasty kink from turbo to standard chargecooler.

Pic thanks to Pinjo
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Much better to clock teh turbo and run a front mount with nice smooth pipework.

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Are you mega against going front mount?? May alleviate the problems your worried about and to be honest, boost response wont be affected that much :D

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:42 pm 
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A good few years ago I saw a little 600cc shopping car with a front mount where the pipework went over the coolant radiator. There was barely more length of pipework than we have on our standard setup, and access was easy from above without removing body panels. It struck me as one of the best FMIC setups possible and I have been keeping my eyes open for a way to implement on our cars.
Lo and behold, Ed has come up with the RS500 setup which is similar, and does look feasable to fit in our cars.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6188&p=45251

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Hi,

and here comes the answer of that question, much less to weld against a FMIC pipework

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2908&start=450

Diceman, can you explain me why you loose power in front of WI.....?

greetz

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:40 pm 
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It doesn't have to lose power but you do have to map for that to be the case

WI slows down the flame propagation speed which will ultimately reduce peak pressure and hence power assuming your original timing had peak pressure at the correct point. Interestingly though it will give a greater area under the pressure curve so potentially you might pick up some torque but start loosing top end power

Of course timing can be advanced to redress this but then as you stated already engine goes bang if there's an undetected water issue

Are you planning to use DDS2?


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:42 pm 
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You answered your own question Sunny in your first post.

Unless you remap to account for the addition of water injection (thereby removing the extra safety it provides) you will be running less than optimal timing and lose power. From what I have read the addition of water to the combustion chamber reduces the flame front speed (takes longer to burn) and hence you need to ignite the mixture earlier (run more advance).

You are also partially filling the combustion chamber with a fluid of very low calorific energy which could be used for something useful ;-)

Water injection can 1) make the engine safer under high boost, 2) provide more power but doesn't do both at once.

A lot of the water injection systems are primitive and do not inject a variable quantity in line with the quantity of fuel, as such low RPM range would suffer more than high rpm/full boost areas of the map.

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Nibbles wrote:
A good few years ago I saw a little 600cc shopping car with a front mount where the pipework went over the coolant radiator. There was barely more length of pipework than we have on our standard setup, and access was easy from above without removing body panels. It struck me as one of the best FMIC setups possible and I have been keeping my eyes open for a way to implement on our cars.
Lo and behold, Ed has come up with the RS500 setup which is similar, and does look feasable to fit in our cars.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6188&p=45251

Image


I thought about the rs500 setup many years ago. Key word being thought. I was scuppered when Forge stopped going to Rally day about 5 years ago

Dons setup ticks many boxes


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:58 pm 
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two_OH_five wrote:

Dons setup ticks many boxes


Cost more than my car.... Tick

It is a lovely looking bit of kit, I just hope it performs half as good as it looks.

Likewise I had been thinking about the Rs500 setup (were you in the same pub steve??) But it was around 30mm too high for the St185 :-(

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Worth more than my house....tick


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:39 pm 
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Something along these lines ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-ESCORT-C ... 5d2a9a84d1

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:05 am 
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Whilst all this talk of FMIC's is interesting some people want to keep the WTA setup rather than embark on a major FMIC engineering exercise, particularly on a road car. The TTE WTA, WI and engine cooling setup can cope with up to 400bhp. Hence I quite like Sunny's approach.

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:53 am 
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Hi,

i'am have to hurry a little, i comment the WI at the evenying but tommy from denmark uses the TTE system up to 800HP, he tested also HKS typ S and S ATA cores, but went back to the TTE IC he have less temp. and a faster spool up, due to the big turbo he uses is shows ~500rpm iirc


greetz

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Hi,

i was not able to get more informations about how water effects flame front speed (ffs)

but the important things are
- combustion designe -> engine geometry, piston speed (-> not the crank rpm), gas motion (turbulance), chemical design of fuel and the air fuel ratio -> max. combustion press at lambda0,85 to 0,9 , max effiency at lambda 1,1
(note that the water/fuel ration is disproportional)

the good news are that water in the combustion raises the turbulence which raises the knock level and even it has less calorific energy, it is in the combustion chamber and takes place between the air molecules (you lose no "space"), after all you have more air due to the density and a small extra ammount of water -> steam, the peak pressure until it explodes is higher
(in most cases it is just the engine design and turbolence race teams can work with in front of laws)

if you win touque you win power also on top end, but from vm >18m/s you can see a high rising pressure loose -> charging efficiency -> you have to reduce the stroke

pretty technical, but i hope it explaines my sight of things, looks like i need a detailed explonation and/or measurements of the ffs vs water......

/Edit

the big risk with water is that if you inject to much you have the risk that the oil film on the wall gets remove by washing -> the small TTE WI nozzle has 450cc/min, my one ~320mL/min,
here a good point, it makes no sense to use water in F1 and WRC if it lowers the ffs

but it is correct that is needs to be tuned, thats a fact

greetz

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Hi folks,

did some research about the ffs/water story, in short

water lowers the ffs which lowers the mean effective pressure (tourque) and the knock resistance (a fast ffs let the knock less chance/time)

but this condition gets more then compansated by the, higher air mass (mean effectiv pressure / tourque), the cooling effect of the water (knock)
and the better clean combustion chamber (carbon) -> knock

greetz

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