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 Post subject: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:54 am 
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Clubman

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 80
Location: swindon
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Hi all,

I have asked a similar question on the OC in the past. I thought I would ask here as not many people have experiance using the charge cooler at above standard boost levels.

I've just put a deposit down on a full forged build. I not looking at making a bhp monster but I want somthing with more power without losing the low down response.

I've opted for the gt2071r turbo. Hopfully this will keep spool up times nice and low.

What I want to do is keep the charge cooler so I can keep the spool nice and quick.
Now I know this comes with possible heat issues. Has anyone done this with any success?
I've heard I could run a expansion tank to increase the water capacity. Is this worth looking at?

The other issue I can see is that I'll be running the power FC for the mr2. This means the charge cooler pump will be on continuous meaning more heat soak.

So will the above work? Am I asking too much from the cc?


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:44 pm
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Location: drinking devil fuel
Car Model: ST205
When sirius was datalogging the cc water temperature was usually first to go over limits iirc. This indicates scope for improvement. Ducting the water rad would be my first move as the stock setup is pants/non existent


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Clubman

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two_OH_five wrote:
When sirius was datalogging the cc water temperature was usually first to go over limits iirc. This indicates scope for improvement. Ducting the water rad would be my first move as the stock setup is pants/non existent



When you say ducting the rad, what do you mean? Do you mean ducting it so it gets more cold air flow?

I was also wondering if water injection would help, or even a bigger cc rad


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:42 pm 
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WRC
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Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Austria
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Hi,

give me some month and i will come back to you with some measurements, have a look to see
my system

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2908

raising the ammount of water is a perfect idea, there are two way to do this,

1, raise the systems volume
2, change the water/alcohol mix, i drive 33% anti freeze and 66% water, water is simple the best liquide for cooling (specific heat capacity, and heat conductivity), alcohols is way not that good (same mix in the engine )

i also use a jabsco 80l/min pump (circles per time unit) which fits the bracket very nice i would not run the pump all the time, the oem controll is pretty nice, a custom pre-radiator is used in front of the car and on top of the engine is a uprated group A spec intercooler (~1cm higher against oem -> one coolin grow more), just by that intercooler i got +0,1bar boost on the oem engine

possible you are more happy with a EFR turbo against garett

http://www.turbodriven.com/de/performan ... s/efr.aspx

same as above, i can tell you more once the engine is running, but it looks like the 6758 spools like oem but is a 450HP on the engine turbo

i also considered to cut my damaged oem intercooler to have a look at the internals, get measurements and calculation of his power, but i'am unsure as it is on my old engine
to cover the TB and turbo :lol:

/EDIT, you can see ducting in my linkt to, airflow through the radiator package is the key too -> raise the pressure in front of the radiators and lower the pressure in the engine bay

greetz

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Club Staff
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:06 am
Posts: 4743
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Car Model: ST205
Agree with Steve, ducting the airflow through the CC rad will definitely help but not sure by how much as no one I know has done this on a 205. I seem to recall a 185 owner in France posted some pics of a ducted rad a while ago so might be worth a trawl through the forum for the thread.

To keep the air charge temps under control when you run higher boost through the stock WTA charge cooler I fitted an ERL Aquamist water injection system with a flow monitor. Some people don't like relying on this but so long as you don't map the ECU with the WI switched on the engine should be safe. I think it is a useful safety net so I've got the system on my track toy project to supplement the FMIC.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:14 am
Posts: 3265
Location: Camberley, Surrey
Car Model: ST205
My 2p is that if you are changing the turbo then go front mount - reason being is that most turbos don't line up properly with the chargecooler and it usually looks a bit poor.

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Junior WRC

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:43 pm
Posts: 998
Location: NLD
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TrackToyFour wrote:
I seem to recall a 185 owner in France posted some pics of a ducted rad a while ago so might be worth a trawl through the forum for the thread.

Yeah, Bozo-Merlin:

http://www.gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4350

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Clubman

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 80
Location: swindon
Car Model: None
I like the ducting. I'm sure that will improve the cooling, but how much is the question.

I've been reading some mr2 posts and some of those guys are running around 400 on the st205 cc.
This give me confidence that it I should be able to do it one way or another.

Piping isn't too much of an issue as ill probably have custom pipe work made including a straight intake.

I don't know a way of controlling the cc pump when using the power FC. Is this going to be a problem if its always running?

Sunny you mentioned you have a group A cc. Are these available? If this give more capacity its got to be worth looking at.


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:21 pm
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It was my understanding that the MR2s have slightly better airflow over the CC core due to the shape of the car, the void above the bootlid pulls air up over the engine/core as well as the extra coolant in the system due to having the rad at the front thus not suffering from heatsoak like we do.

The MR2 lads run the CC pump continually with no measured ill effect either apparently too, Not sure if it's due to people not measuring it accurately/in a controlled manner or 'cause the above point.

Could be twaddle though, but that was my understanding of the MR2 boys :)


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:05 pm 
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WRC
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Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Austria
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Hi,

i definetly think that the MR2 has more cooling issues, on our cars the air enters pretty nice on front ot it :)
note that the internals of the cc counts not the shell, it is the radiator core that cools (a question of surface)

a friend of mine built a small electronic to controll the water pump becouse the hatlech ecu i use isn't able to controll it like oem

the TTE ic is available, but most times expensive, ask in here

http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/

but be carefull, let you sent pictures and i also wouldn't buy from peaople who accepts western union
on the picture you should see the higher distance from the inlet pipe to the deck of the cc

you can also try wevers sport in nl but they are more expensive, around 1000€ for the cc is common

without expensive wind-tunnel test you are not able to get compareable measurements, but years ago when my car was oem i noticed nearly every time
running fans in the city, currently my fans run never becouse the air flow is raised, sometimes i test them by running engine without driving

a further good example was that i had 1,2bar boost with fuel cut in spring and fall without any boost controller mounted, just by the exhaust and intercooler +0,3bar

water injection is a good way too to raise the air-mass and knock limit

greetz

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Group B
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Location: Bournemouth
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I had always assumed the MR2 conversion put the CC pre-rad at the front of the car in front of the coolant rad. This would lead to a somewhat larger water capacity which would help with short bursts of power, but not under constant load such as track use.

I've just had a quick look on my 205 and the pre-rad is a fair way away from the fans and will probably get little advantage from them, also has a numberplate covering a large proportion of the area. TBH it's so small that I think if you tried ducting all the air through it you would wind up with too much restriction on the coolant rad. I would personally be looking at a larger rad and ducting and / or fitting fitting fans.

Water injection will help but IMO is a sticking plaster bodge rather than a solution, especially as running out of water or other failure can lead to engine failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Club Staff
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:06 am
Posts: 4743
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Car Model: ST205
Nibbles wrote:
Water injection will help but IMO is a sticking plaster bodge rather than a solution, especially as running out of water or other failure can lead to engine failure.

WI is OK so long as its part of an engineered solution and its limitations are understood. It was originally developed during the war to boost the power output of aero engines for a short period of time. The Napier Sabre powerplant in the Hawker Tempest fighter of 1944 was designed with a supercharger to output 2,615bhp at 1 bar boost. With water/methanol injection the power output was raised to 3,055bhp at 1.2 bar however the use of this power setting was limited to a maximum of 15 minutes. There's a good account of this by Pierre Clostermann in his excellent book 'The Big Show'. Here he describes how he used the Sabre's emergency combat power throttle setting to chase after an ME262 jet but was worried that he would destroy the engine if he exceeded this! I guess the 15 minutes might have been the limit of the water/methanol tank?

Here endeth the history lesson :)

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:41 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 pm
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Location: Austria
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Hi,

i often hear people say that water injection has no benefit, however they often ain't tune the igition timing, WI also effects the octane rating
we calculated safety +10octan and ~10% more air mass, but note that it is just calculated
there are not many people out there who did this correction of the map, becouse of engine damages after a blocked nozzle

on my WI system i will use a pressure sensor and a flow sensor offert by aquamist to be safe of that situation, possible i will run a ROZ105 mappping
once activated with ROZ98 fuel, we will see, this very depends how far away i'am from the target

greetz

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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:08 pm 
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Clubman

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:23 pm
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Wouldn't worry about the pump running all the time - the ST205 ECU only ever seems to turn it off after idling for 30s. Shame really as with a temp sensor in the chargecooler coolant jacket, an increase in coolant capacity and a bit of logic you could create a very efficient system for everyday non-continuous load driving. I may look at doing something like this in the future.

Not sure I would want to duct the OEM CC rad - this will affect the airflow to the engine radiator and may result in overheating problems. On the MR2 many people used the standard Fiat Cinquecento radiator and some encountered engine cooling issues on track. Happily I found a 'tube and fin' style cheap aftermarket one available which presents a far lower flow restriction.

CC system capacity on my MR2 was approximately 11 litres. It is true that airflow through the engine bay was bottom to top - the rear undertrays included ducting and there was a low pressure zone above the engine lid, but I don't think this would have affected the CC system to any measurable degree.

Water injection is a great safety net imo, as long as it's done right. With the standard center feed manifold and a single injection point post chargecooler the distribution between cylinders will be less than ideal, particularly as I'd guess cylinders 2/3 run leaner than 1/4.


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 Post subject: Re: Charge cooler limits
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:40 am 
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WRC
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Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Austria
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Hi,

the correct injector nozzle location is a pretty important, thats right

but there is a ready to use option on the market, use a intake manifold out of a homologation typ ST205 and his WI nozzle, pretty nice becouse this is built to work by toyota/TTE, the injector size is
a different problem, but easy to solve too

possible the cylinders ain't not get the same amount of water, but i guess that it must not be tuned so detailed, a perfect tuning would mean a lot of hours on the engine dyno to get a correct map
for all engine duty points, thats pretty expensive
water which isnt evapurated compensats against reheating, and note that WI isn't able to low down the EGT, the water is latest after the compression totally evapurated, it is not easy to overheat the damp so it do not abstract any significant abount of energy from the combustion


greetz

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