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 Post subject: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Tidworth
Car Model: ST185
Hopefully someone may be able to shed some light on this.

Had enough of the brakes now, they will not work.


Non abs
Got 205 servo
Refurbished master cylinder and bias valve
New front lines and hel flexis
Calipers are all good

Front calipers fitted with avensis disc's and 205 pads with a spacer behind the inner pads to overcome the distance between the pistons and pad.
Calipers fitted with m12x40mm bolts.

Had her into a good garage to try and sort them out but they recon its to do with the calipers and the pads not sitting central something to do with the force from the pistons on the spacer causing it to react oddly. Just don't know what to do about it.

They did bind so I adjusted the push rod, but now the pedal goes to the floor and then it starts to brake but if I brake hard it squirms quite badly and they squeek when coming to a complete stop.

Any ideas? Cause I'm at a complete loss.

Oh it used to have abs but we removed it.

:?:

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

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White 1990 GT Four ST185 (Import)
Now with 205 engine, ecu, engine & internal loom inc Speedo binacle and heater control.


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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:22 am
Posts: 235
Location: Central Dorset
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When you removed the abs, you did the replacement pipework and front / rear bias valve properly didn't you ?

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Darryl

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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Tidworth
Car Model: ST185
I believe so, everything came from a donor non abs 205, me and my mate swapped the engine, gearbox, front driveshafts, ecu, both wiring looms, heater controls, speedo binacle and all the brakes. Everything else is sweet as got around 330bhp on the rolling road although lost alot through transmission but I think some of that was due to the brakes binding.

When we swapped the brakes over everything went in as it came out of the 205 including the orientation of the bias valve. So really struggling to understand what's going on:x

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White 1990 GT Four ST185 (Import)
Now with 205 engine, ecu, engine & internal loom inc Speedo binacle and heater control.


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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:54 pm
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Links with pics of other avensis/ST205 caliper mockups/messups :-)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5238&hilit=avensis

http://gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2354

How thick was your spacer on the pad?
Have you checked the brake pad swept area is correct?

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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:31 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:40 pm
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Location: Tidworth
Car Model: ST185
Thats the thread I used to do mine mate, my blanking plates are a set of old pads with the material removed.

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White 1990 GT Four ST185 (Import)
Now with 205 engine, ecu, engine & internal loom inc Speedo binacle and heater control.


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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:19 am 
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I am not sure which thread you are indicating but I hope it isn't mine :-)

A couple of notes of safety.
1) I am not qualified to specify suitable grade materials for vehicle braking systems, please seek advice from soemone who knows. The nut/bolt I used was purely for mock up purpose and IMHO is not suitable for the job. They look identical to yours and even look like they have the B&Q bolt code on the piece of paper! I believe these were just cheap/poor zinc plated bolt & Nyloc nuts which again IMHO are not fit for purpose and upto sustaining many UK winters on a vehicle without failure and the consequences of a caliper falling off coudl be quite major!

2) the centre bore of the avensis disc varies depending on model and has been reported as anything from 54.1 mm (same as the GT4) to 62mm - did you use anything to support the wheel/disc off the hub spigot to take up the difference or is the disc & wheel just relying on the wheel bolts?

3) My plan was to machine a little material off the caliper mounting tabs to centralise the caliper over the disc, partially because IMHO the caliper was too close to the disc on one side and had a massive gap on the other (as you identified and used a spacer instead). Maybe someone can advise if the addition of the spacer is a safe way to go about it? If spacers are required for the difference in disc thickness (32mm st205 to 26mm avensis) then I would have probably looked at using 2 off 2.5-3mm spacers with the caliper central. Maybe it is just me being anal about it but I feared the piston sitting in the wrong position (either too far in or out) and the dust boots failing prematurely or pistons getting stuck/breaking the seal. (It was beyond my knowledge base as you may have guessed!)

4) what I did find is that there are wildly varying pad friction material shapes for the ST205 pads depending on who you buy them from and some wodul result in pad material being outside of the disc swept area, others were fine.

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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:02 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:22 am
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You would need to ensure even if the brake pad and the spacer fell (came) out that the piston doesn't pop out ... Normally the disk at its minimum thickness will ensure it doesn't.

On my ST185 upgrade ( using TT disks ) I used Toyota bolts, so feel sure they are up to spec on my setup.

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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 8:06 pm
Posts: 595
Location: Knoxville, TN USA
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Do you own a caliper for measuring? When the pistons are fully retracted are both pads each distance from the rotor? I know you spaced one side, but the rotor really needs to be true center. The pad may not set the proper distance for this. If its a few mm too big, you can purchase caliper shims to space the caliper back some at the mounting points or make a new spacer that is the exact size you need.

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1992 Celica Gt4 RC Conv. St205 swap
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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:40 pm
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Location: Tidworth
Car Model: ST185
I have a measuring caliper. Do you think the gap is the cause of the problems?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

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White 1990 GT Four ST185 (Import)
Now with 205 engine, ecu, engine & internal loom inc Speedo binacle and heater control.


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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 8:06 pm
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Location: Knoxville, TN USA
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I am not sure about your issue of the pedal going to the floor unless you piston maybe extended too far and caused a leak issue or something. I am not an expert on hydraulic systems, but I did assemble my own BBK. I tried the 205 caliper route, but it proved to be a big pain in the *bleep* so I went with a willwood setup. From my readings on building your own setup the caliper needs to sit dead center of the rotor when its close. Now you are running an offset system due to rotor offset so you need to be sure when the pads are closing on the rotor that they are equal distance. I could imagine that causing binding since the calipers do not retract equally from the rotor. So one side may still be in contact or not reacting as it should.
Calipers can be shimmed out as well, but in most cases the 205 caliper needs to go the other way which requires material removal from the caliper ears. Best bet is to figure out if your pad spacer is too big or small, then shim it to adjust. If its too small then you might order a sheet of metal that you can cut to add to it. When I spoke to TRD, I think they recommended titanium to handle the heat. You might use another material as a temporary solution just to see if it resolves the problem. If the pad is too thick, then you can either machine it down or get another spacer.

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1992 Celica Gt4 RC Conv. St205 swap
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http://www.noritoy.com


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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Tidworth
Car Model: ST185
Could very well be the problem then, I'll check it out and see what it looks like although I may just go for a specifically made set like d2 etc

If you don't mind me asking whats your setup consist of and what kind of price would I be looking at?

Cheers

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

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White 1990 GT Four ST185 (Import)
Now with 205 engine, ecu, engine & internal loom inc Speedo binacle and heater control.


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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 8:06 pm
Posts: 595
Location: Knoxville, TN USA
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It all depends on what route you wanted. Mine was a little cheaper since I made my own brackets and bought parts 2nd hand. I used wilwood superlight 1 which is an older less expensive model. The great thing though is I shaved 12lbs of each side compared to stock.
Note, I swapped my hubs with a rav4 to have 5x114 bolt pattern, and used rotors for that bolt pattern.
When you go this route there are a lot more options. You could even go sti rotors and have a hubcentric ring made. There is already a kit that uses those rotors as well porsche boxter brembo calipers.
Wilwood calipers run around $300usd new for a set. Then your rotor, then the cost involved in making your bracket and hubcentric rings as well as brake lines. If you can do your own machining then you can save yourself a lot of money. Then you have to center everything. Rather than moving my rotor out, I had to use a .7mm shim to move the caliper out. Luckily I was almost set with my rotor choice as it was.
Image

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Coldiron (Cold - Iron)
1992 Celica Gt4 RC Conv. St205 swap
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http://www.noritoy.com


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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:20 pm 
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IIRC you were the that used wilwood bells & rotors?? The rotors you quoted price wise were seriously cheap. They are around 3-4 times that price in the UK!

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Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:28 am 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 8:06 pm
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Location: Knoxville, TN USA
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The price is part of the reason I went with that specific size. They make larger rotor rings but at 30usd each its just too good a value for me.

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Coldiron (Cold - Iron)
1992 Celica Gt4 RC Conv. St205 swap
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http://www.noritoy.com


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 Post subject: Re: 205 brakes on my 185
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:13 pm
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Location: Ireland
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I have done this conversion on st202 hubs and would be roughly same proceedure any chance you could post some pictures of your set up and we could have a look at it?


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