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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:40 pm 
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Location: Knoxville, TN USA
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Does anyone know of links to dynos where someone has tuned an ems on a stock st205? I have a jdm ecu which is tuned for higher octane than I can regularly get. I can get 93 octane or 98 ron. My understanding is the jdm ecu is tuned for 100+ ron. I have a booster than can put me at close to that. I am at what kind of gains and fuel efficiency might be obtained through a proper tune. From what I understand they run richer with lower fuel quality to prevent detonation.

If I go this route I will also get my 205 turbo changed to inconel blades. They have proved more reliable than the ceramic at high boost, and produce more power.
Here is a dyno of what is called a black jack ct21 by ats. One 3rd gen 3sgte powered mr2 made 400whp with supporting mods. Their main difference being having an EMS and larger injectors.
http://s272.photobucket.com/user/ATSJet ... 5.jpg.html

Two other reputable places in the states build them, one with a antisurge intake. All have either a modified or upgraded wastegate and all for under 1000usd.

I am considering both one of these turbos and an ems to maybe get the most out of my stock system. If not an ems, maybe a piggyback of some sort to make things more efficient.
Thoughts on the subject are appreciated.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:43 pm 
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Hi,

on the octane side, the ignition map is different to prefent you from knock, so if you get 98roz you better drop the jdm ecu

both the ceramic and the steel impeller of the ct20 have the same power, ceramic has the lower weight and a better spool up, thats why they homologated them
the maximum power with oem cams is around360HP (~1,4bar) but be aware, you should not drive more then 1,1bar with oem ecu

a stand alone ecu is a good way to get more power but i would not consider it for fuel efficiency, toyota uses thousand of hours to tune the engine which is way to expensive

greetz

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:56 pm 
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It all depends on your goal. Buying, installing and tuning an EMS for a few hp is really expencive.

I have a stock gen2 3sgte with bigger injectors, fuelpump, EMS and GT3071 running around 350 hp@1,2 bar. But the gen 3 makes power more easy than a gen2.
The EMS did get my car a better throttle responce, but I have never driven a gen 3.
The EMS is getting a better fuel economy due to leaner A/F ratio on boost and at cruise speed. The bigger injectors do not help that.

I could have better put in a gen3 and raise the boost to 1,1 and be done. Saved me a lot of money and time for a few HP more.

So if you have a dream of 400 to 500 hp than you need an EMS. If you think 300-330 is enough stay with the stock system. I do not think the other CT is going to get you more power than the stock unit. It still has the same backhousing, it would not make a huge difference. For years I have been staring at dyno's from ATS, KOracing and others like that. They only post the best one's to get people to buy from them.

my 2ct's

On the JDM ecu. I have read that you need to reset the ecu if you fill the tank with higher octane fuel to benefit from it. Driving around with a JDM ecu and "normal" fuel does nothing. This is from reading, not my own experiance.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:55 pm 
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There are plenty of JDM cars in the UK runnong on 98RON fuel, or even 95. I've done may tens of thousands of miles on a JDM ECU with 95 RON. The knock control system seems to cope quite happily. To be honest, I doubt you'd notice the difference changing to a JDM ECU as I never notice a difference changing fuels. I just run 98 when I'm competing for extra safety margin.

Bear in mind the standard pistons are on their limits at 350BHP, at this level most don't last long. To go beyond that you will need to rebuild with forged pistons.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:09 am 
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
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When I ran my standard UK ST205 on 95 RON fuel you could feel the anti-knock ignition retard kicking in from time to time and this was during normal driving. Since then I've always used Shell V-power on both UK and JDM and had no trouble since.

One of our guys bought an ATS turbo a few years ago (it was called a CT27) It was also supposed to be specially ported to mitigate the dreaded boost creep. The quality of finish of the turbo and actuator didn't seem very good. He eventually returned or sold it on and fitted a Turbo Technics S148. Things may have changed with ATS as this was a few years ago. On this side of the pond most people go for the S148 with the single wastegate port as a good upgrade on the stock manifold. There have been no reports of boost creep with this design and its good for 370 to 400bhp. If you do decide to go down this route the usual warnings apply regarding fueling, ECU, standard engine internals as the other guys have already mentioned. I'm sure you're well aware of all this anyway :)

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:18 am 
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Thanks guys. I have noticed my car not running as well when using BP 98ron vs using shell 98ron. My wife worked for a petroleum refinery and explained that BP is on a lower spectrum of quality fuel. Shell is one of the tops. She mentioned Sunoco and Phillips 66 are also top. Sadly there is no Sunoco near me as most of them have 99-100ron at the pump and in some cases 110 octane, which is much higher ron. If 98-99ron is good enough than I will stick with the jdm ecu. It does run very rich, but it sounds like the gains to be had might not be worth the cost. I do wonder if some fine tuning with a piggy back might help lean things out some.

Here is the newest entry to local ct20 builders. No dynos for it yet. All three claim incolel wheels. All offer an option for a few mm larger, where this one in the pic is already larger.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Good point about a company posting their own dynos. I will keep an eye out for any results people post of their own dynos. I know they had a black friday sale and quite a few people picked up some. One mr2 with the ats ct21b did run the 1/4 mile and he got a 12.6 time, but I have seen 185s with 205 swaps and bhp mods run 12.9. They are heavier and have more loss than the mr2 of course.

My goals are not massive. At least not yet. I was kicking around the gt28 because I wanted to improve my powerband if at all possible as well as increased power. I am currently working out a budget for future mods and trying to determine how much I want to put into power. Realistically I would like to try and get as much power out of a 3rd gen as I can and retain reliability without opening the engine. I run 15psi now. Just one psi over stock. 17.5psi is where I think is where the stock safety stuff kicks in, so I will not be boosting over that on a stock ecu. If anything I may look into getting a better wastegate.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:10 am 
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Piggyback ecu is probably favorite for a mild tune as you retain the safeties and smooth mapping but can tweak fuelling a bit weaker.
I would advise fitting a wideband afr gauge if you are going to remove safety margin so you can make sure it stays safe.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:11 pm 
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Good point about the piggyback ECU. I didn't mention that I used to run a Dastek Unichip on my de-catted ST205. The stock ST205 over-fuels under boost probably and I'm sure this was a deliberate Toyota ECU strategy to err on the safe side. When I removed the cat and fitted a downpipe the over-fuelling became more extreme and that's when I fitted the Dastek. It was configured by a pro tuning outfit to take out as much fuel as it could. We actually ran out of fuelling adjustment on this early version of the Unichip. Unfortunately I don't have a record of the actual improvements in the fuel consumption but it certainly stopped the clouds of black smoke coming out the exhaust under boost!

As I progressed with the car I ended up replacing the OEM ECU/Dastek combo with a MoTeC M4Pro. Whilst this was great for top power it wasn't so good for low-down driveability and economy compared to the piggyback setup. I suspect if we'd spent a lot of time mapping we could have got close. This was quite a revelation at the time! It does however underline the points the guys have made about trying to replicate the everyday capability of the stock Toyota system which has probably cost millions of yen to develop.

On my road ST205 I'm slowly refurbishing and fitting internal upgraded parts which I've accumulated over time whilst keeping it looking standard externally. Progress is currently slow as my main focus is finishing my track toy project.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:54 am 
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I did not know that you could loose standard drivability from an ems. I had an emanage blue but sold it before I finished the swap to 205. I have a wideband, but it is an aem for datalogging or hooking to a laptop. I am going to look into getting a gauge for it, or replacing it with a standard one. Recently a local made a cable and Android based program that will read the data from a 205 and 92+ 185 ecu and output it. It might be a nice
http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=49759

If something came of this project, than perhaps it might be worth the add on module for a few tweaks.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6990

I am not trying to turn the car into a prius, but if I could make the car leaner in a safe limit under power I would like to get more track time per tank of gas. That was the nice thing about my old 350z. I could run it hard all day and only use half a tank.

It seems the stock ecu can do quite a bit. If the internals are only good for 350bhp than I guess there is little use in doing too much to the car since it seems all that came with the factory can push beyond those limits. The whole bhp idea always threw me off. I am used to whp or crank hp. How does bhp differ from those? I find a lot of opinions when I googled it, but it seems many are confused by it and how it compares to the others.

I could open the engine and replace the pistons. I assume there might be other things that would eat into my budget if I go that route though. I am holding off on and major work on the engine as I am thinking if I do decide to go big, I may use a different engine altogether. I have been eyeing the 1ar. All aluminum, 2.7L and shown to make some power in recent drift cars. If I did stay 3s, I have a feeling I would be at least using a late 2.2 5s block. That would quickly eat into my lsd and suspension plans.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:24 pm 
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Quote:
I am not trying to turn the car into a prius
:lol:

To get better economy on my ST205 one of the tweaks we did was enable the over-run fuel cut on the MoTeC. The next time I did a track day the engine blew :( Whilst I put that down mainly to the water injection airlocking resulting in subsequent detonation and ring-land failure I suspect that the loss of cooling from the fuel was a contributory factor. I'm not sure too many race cars enable over-run fuel cut. You'll see many, particularly the older generation turbo cars flame out off-throttle. On my supercharged Elise it would occasionally ignite the fuel off-throttle as a long flame out the exhaust. Impressed the team in the pit lane and scared the cars behind :mrgreen: :lol: Never had any engine problems though. Shame I didn't get any pics of it doing this before I sold it.

Nowadays on the track everyone is going direct injection and closed loop but this is quite difficult to get right as many race teams are finding out. For the time being I'm tempted to keep things as simple as possible even if it means running continuous injection and race fuel. If you are tempted to lean out the fuel then an AFR gauge and warning light on the dash is a must. I too have an old skool Innovate AFR sensor/gauge. I've never got around to fitting it as my road ST205 is pretty standard and with this older type of sensor/gauge you can't use it to drive an ECU/Dash so it's not very flexible. I'll probably sell it on and buy something more capable.

If I were you I'd focus on the driveline/suspension rather than opening up or changing the engine. Power isn't everything. With driveline/suspension mods, a good EBC and modern spec turbo like the TT S148 S3 the throttle response would be much improved and you wouldn't have the worry of the 350bhp limit of the stock engine internals. This would make the car very quick round the corners and be a lot less expensive than an engine swap.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:39 pm 
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I agree with Don!

A good EMS will set you back 1500 - 2000 bucks, then it needs to be installed and tuned. so count on 4-5000 bucks.
Then a turbokit, because they exist, you will need bigger injectors. Because you are running more HP the clutch needs replacing, and so on.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Don,

That is one reason I like the 1ar. It has direct injection in the head design for its 2.6lL lexus. I think it would be quite the monster of an engine. It would be cheaper to go v6, but I rather stay I4 just for ease of plumbing stuff and of course easier access to maintenance items. Check out this build. Of course this is something I would only consider if I decided that I need 500+hp in my car. http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ ... Aasbo.aspx

I think you guys are on the money though. For now I should just get the best out of what I can with my stock engine setup. I looked into bottom end parts and it looks like they are about 1800-2k, and I would need machine work on top of that. I have been working out my budget and I am likely going to upgrade from the teins to something a little higher end. I am also planning on a cusco rear lsd, 205 gearbox, and front lsd. I have been wondering for the cost of my new drivetrain if I would be better off to adapt an Evo 7/8 gearbox and rear lsd and end up with three better LSD units that will still have replacement options down the road. In the end, that may be more head ache than its worth when I can just bolt the other stuff in, and the toyota stuff is built better. Sadly the cost will not be much different either way.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:28 am 
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Just a little word of warning the S148 is also supplied with a billet compressor wheel, turbo technics will openly admit even themselves that this variation can be troublesome with compressor surge and they themselves dont class it as a TRUE S148 even though they supply it so it appears they have issues with their original supplier, I am currently on a 4 week waiting list for one of them

The standalone emu if you get a good ecu combined with a good mapper your onto a winner, you dont have to spend big figures on motecs, etc either for example the standalone I promote and supply is proving a great ecu with great results and protection also

Martin

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:19 am 
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Interesting about the S148 compressor surge. I presume its the latest S3 variant which has the billet compressor? Reason I am interested is that I have an older S148 which I acquired from Mike a couple of years ago in exchange for a set of HKS264 cams :mrgreen: I would suspect the BOV will be playing a role where surge has occurred. A good quality aftermarket BOV such as a Forge fitted with the correct springs would make a difference.

HKS offer some of their turbo's which have the compressor annulus drilled with anti-surge bypass holes and Owen Developments also offer modified Garrett compressors although in their case rather than a series of holes they are slots. Other makes may be available too :wink:

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:36 am 
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Josh, do you know about the MakTrak (http://maktrak.com/) transmission? This I believe is based on Mitsubishi Evo 7/8 driveline modified with straight cut gears and matched front, centre and rear LSD's. Jonny Milner used this in his heavily modified 800bhp ST205 to set the speed record and come second in the Goodwood Festival of Speed Hillclimb in 2011. It employed a twincharger setup consisting of a supercharger and a turbo with nitrous spool assist. It was mated to a WRC 3S-GTE block using an adaptor plate.

It shows what is possible technically but as ever it depends on the depth of your wallet. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Toyota over-engineered the stock transmission and it will be fine on my track build.

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Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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