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Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
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Author:  darrylp [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
**BETSY** wrote:
darrylp wrote:
Whilst new one out, do a resistance measure at room temp, then boiling water and if allowed to do it, once in fudge and then in freezer.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2



Ok Taken from the new EFI Temp sensor

Ambient:- 2.19 Ohms

Boiling Water:-0.60 Ohms

Fridge:- 3.35 Ohms

Freezer:- 12.26 Ohms



Okay, hope they are kilo ohms not plain ohms. Look a bit suspect to me.

The boiling water one is out of spec of the ST205 bgb figures.

Image

The two air and water temp say 0.6kilo ohms is nicely in the 60.c temp range.
long way off the typical engine coolant running temp of 80.c which should be in range of 0.2 to 0.4 kilo ohms. And 100.c should be even lower.

I'm right in thinking yours is a rev 3 engine ?

--
Darryl
Author:  Nibbles [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
The Toyota sensors are give or take standard Noah temperature curve. Refer to last page or 2 of digi dash thread for look up table as cross check.
Author:  **BETSY** [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
darrylp wrote:
**BETSY** wrote:
darrylp wrote:
Whilst new one out, do a resistance measure at room temp, then boiling water and if allowed to do it, once in fudge and then in freezer.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2



Ok Taken from the new EFI Temp sensor

Ambient:- 2.19 Ohms

Boiling Water:-0.60 Ohms

Fridge:- 3.35 Ohms

Freezer:- 12.26 Ohms



Okay, hope they are kilo ohms not plain ohms. Look a bit suspect to me.

The boiling water one is out of spec of the ST205 bgb figures.

Image

The two air and water temp say 0.6kilo ohms is nicely in the 60.c temp range.
long way off the typical engine coolant running temp of 80.c which should be in range of 0.2 to 0.4 kilo ohms. And 100.c should be even lower.

I'm right in thinking yours is a rev 3 engine ?

--
Darryl



Hi Darryl, taken the readings again using my Fluke DVM this time.

Ambient :- 2.316K OHms

Fridge :- 3.89K Ohms

Freezer :- 17.98K Ohms

Boiling Water :- .618K Ohms

All look to be with in the spec, Im yet to try the stock st165 Toyota Efi sensor which is currently fitted to the engine

My Engine is a Rev2
Author:  Diceman [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
the boiling water figures are still out Steve.

I assume your "efi temp sensor" is a water temp sensor and not manifold air temp sensor?
Author:  **BETSY** [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
The test was conducted with a Water Temp EFi sensor and consisted of boiling the kettle, pouring the water into an egg cup holder and plonking the sensor in.
Re-reading the Toyota figures it seems this sensor is indeed off and at the resistance of 0.618K Ohms with Boiling water its telling the ecu that the water temp is only around 60'

I have looked up the readings for an st165 Water Temp EFi sensor and they are 100% the same..

This El-Cheapo water temp sensor is El Shaggedo
Author:  Nibbles [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
**BETSY** wrote:
The test was conducted with a Water Temp EFi sensor and consisted of boiling the kettle, pouring the water into an egg cup holder and plonking the sensor in.
Re-reading the Toyota figures it seems this sensor is indeed off and at the resistance of 0.618K Ohms with Boiling water its telling the ecu that the water temp is only around 60'

I have looked up the readings for an st165 Water Temp EFi sensor and they are 100% the same..

This El-Cheapo water temp sensor is El Shaggedo


By the time the heat has been shared with the egg cup and sensor, it was probably about 50-60C so probably about right.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/sens ... _m12-h.pdf

Get a saucepan simmering with the sensor in and try again.
Author:  darrylp [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
Yep try it actively boiling.

The air and water have the same resistance to temp measurements.

--
Darryl
Author:  **BETSY** [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
Ok not updated this recently so here goes!

I purchased a genuine Toyota Efi temperature sensor in the end so I know where I'm at.

I have since returned to SRR for Ryan to take a look at the car on the rollers
He started off doing some map checks against what he had on record and decided to carry out some runs off boost to monitor fuelling, battery voltage etc and did this for 5 to 10 minutes maintains revs and speed

He was keen to try and work out what has changed since the initial map was set-up

In the end he ended up adding 15% more fuel into the map and has suggested I look at the alternator and fuel pump.
Not a permanent fix but potentially safer than it as been!

I have done some more monitoring of voltages and have found some concerning results!

Cold start/normal driving I see 13.6 Volts at the ECU (Viewed through the hand commander)
On boost this voltage DROPS to 13.2Volts! Again at the ECU.

Alternator voltage 14.15Volts

Fuel pump voltage cold start up/normal driving 13.20Volts
Fuel pump on boost DROPS to 12.77 and at times a little less!?




Swapped out the Alternator (Spare, used, unit from my shed)

Cold start I see 14.3 Volts at the ECU (Viewed through the hand commander) this voltage does drop to 13.6 after several miles and everything has warmed up, I believe this is normal? Or perhaps something is braking down with heat?
On boost this voltage does NOT drop at all and remains at 13.6Volts

Alternator showed 15.1volt on cold start up settling to around 14.15Volts which climbs as the boost and revs rise.

Fuel pump voltage cold start up/Normal driving is around 13.65Volts
Fuel pump on boost is still dropping to around 13.1Volts.




The fuel pump is wired through a relay in the boot and connected to the battery in the boot, only old wiring I'm using is from the fuel pump relay wiring as the signal wire.

Now if my ageing Walbro pump was getting tired is this a reason for the voltage dropping as it is drawing more current?
I'm sure the pump is 10 years old +?

I think it's fair to say the original alternator has had it!
Are the above voltages roughly what people are seeing!



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Author:  Nibbles [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
Where are you measuring fuel pump voltage ?
Author:  **BETSY** [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
Not on the rolling road but the above voltages were taken the day after so I see no reason for them to be different?


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Author:  Sirius [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
I think Chris meant whereabouts on the car?
Author:  **BETSY** [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
Ok got ya ;)
Fuel pump voltage is being measured at the pump, wiring connector.


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Author:  two_OH_five [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
Looking at some of my old logs I'm seeing 14.1-14.2 at the ECU

Do you have cold air ducting on the alternator?
I have noticed on mine that despite what everyone tends to say I see a significant voltage drop on mine when I remove this. It's in the order of what you see, a cold 14.4V drops down to 13.9ish as measured on my turbo timer. I don't consider this normal, more likely some overheat control kicking in internally to the alternator

The voltage drops look a bit big all round really but especially the fuel pump. Is the power feed wired direct to battery terminals (albeit through a relay) for both power and ground or are you using the ferric oxide/chassis for the ground connection :lol:
If you disconnect the pump and force the relay to switch on (not sure if the 165 has a FP terminal in the diagnostic port) what voltages do you see at the wiring connector
Author:  Nibbles [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
The voltage drop to the fuel pump will be along the wire from battery via relay to fuel pump. I assume this is an aftermarket relay ? What thickness is this wire and how long ?

Either way, you say you're getting full fuel pressure so it shouldn't be an issue.
Author:  **BETSY** [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Thoughts pls on some AFR results
Cable is around one meter and slightly bigger than the stock wires?
Pos and neg are into the relay/Battery.
Am I right in thinking there is a difference with fuel pump flow and pressure?
Meaning I may be getting good pressure but poor flow?

If the pump was failing and drawing more current than it should that could be a possible cause for seeing the voltage drop?
I will also monitor battery voltage at the same time as Fuel pump voltage.
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