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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Debating what to do for racing next year as the Mini is up for sale at the moment.

Been thinking about throwing together something that would be elligible for Northern S&S and Scottish S&S, but I'm not interested in an Impreza so I'd be sticking with what I know. Quesiton is, ST205 or ST185?

So I'm throwing it open to debate with you chaps for input.

As I see it...

Engine:
ST205 definately has the advantage as the rev3 engine is far easier to get to 320/320 hp/tq levels than the 2nd gen 3SGTE

Transmission:
Unless its a CS, ST205 definately has better diffs and tougher syncros in the box

Suspension:
ST205 superstrut adds a lot of expense and complexity. If not going silly low a la Milner-ground-effect lowness, bump steer may not be that big an issue and ST202 McPherson conversion may alleviate this, although not sure BC dampers would be up to proper racing. (talking concistency of damping and adjustability, wouldnt be running full slicks, just R888s or A048s)

Chassis/Weight:
Finding a rust free 185 is going to be more of a challenge and it is a heavier base but fully stripped I'm not sure there would be that much in it. Theres a greater availability of composite panels for 185s, although in both cases I'm less than convinced a composite bootlid would be up to the challenge of handling the downforce a proper wing would generate. There are a lot more bolt in cage options out there for the 185 than the 205 (curious how Sparco's bolt in offering for the 185 listed in the DT catalogue ties in to the front turrers :? )

Brakes:
205's advantage here for track days isnt really carried over to race scenarios, they'd get cooked so both would be looking at an upgrade, although possibly the ST205 rears would stand up to it?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:05 pm 
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IMHO a ST185 is the best base car. Mainly for the suspension.

Stick a St205 engine in it with gearbox & rear diff (probably cost £1200-£1300).

Strut/coil-over options, exhausts, cages, GRP panels etc etc are all more available for the St185.

May also be worth considering a ST165 - what looks like a nice one on ebay in essex at the mo. May provide elegibility for some classic tin-top series?

I would however say that an early Impreza RA or EVO will be a far better base car and have much more parts availability. Starting points are lighter too.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:14 pm
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Location: sunny sleaford- lincolnshire
Car Model: ST205
i agree, even though i prefer the 205 over the 185 as a road car i too looked at purchasing a gtfour as a race car and we looked into the 185 over the 205.

the suspension is just such a no no and as above i think youd be better off getting a 185 and just using the 205 running gear


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:05 pm 
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I have owned & driven both for extended periods and I agree that for a road car and everyday use the ST205 is better, quieter, more comfortable, more modern and quicker in std trim.

Now I have a regular daily driver (non-gt4) I sold the St205 and bought a ST185.

Either way target a good condition shell without sunroof and ABS. The ST185 lightweight will probably be of little use to you as I assume the interior will all be stripped.

On the ST185 I personally feel it is better built with more sturdy materials than St205. Lightweight doors & bonnet will help, ditching pop up headlamps/electris seats & wing mirrors will lose a fair bit of weight.

They will always be heavy, even Dons track build with swiss cheese chassis is likely to end up being about the same as a full road going impreza RA!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:37 pm 
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
Car Model: ST205
The Impreza panels bend if you breathe heavily on them. Later models were a lot more solid and weigh closer to an ST205. IMO the ST205 is easier to turn into a track toy as the components are generally more robust. The big drawback is the front SS suspension which weighs a ton: -(
Anyway, that's sorted now I've gone custom McPherson strut: -D Not exactly DIY tho!
If I can get the weight under 1100kg I'll be happy. I have GRP tailgate wings and doors lined up for Phase2 along with tubular subframes. All that should help: -D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:57 pm 
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i agree the 205 is a great out of the box car for road use,but if your tracking ,theres not much between them.
well for around 1k i can supply you with as original fiberglass doors,bootlid and rc/cs bonnet

also do mirrors lamp pods,airboxes.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:53 pm
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Location: Another Shire County
Car Model: ST185
Trying to look at this from a financially challenging perspective, ie., bang-4-buck, I would probably look at a 185 with a 205 engine swap.

Some reasons why...
The 185 can be stripped quite considerably.
Alex is doing FB wings, bonnet, tailgate, etc, so lightweight parts available.
More suspension choice and cheaper (BC, TEIN, etc).
Brakes probably work out about the same price but you have various options (e.g. big brake kit upfront and 205 conversion for the rear).
Engine wise you can get 300-320 out of a standard 205 engine with minimal mods (filter, exhaust and boost controller).
Also you have room for improvement, ie, forged engine at a later date.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:52 am 
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the only bad point of the 205 is the front suspension. As soon as you change for McPherson it's a better car for a small budget track car.

Striped it will weight less than a striped 185, you already have the engine every say to swap and some decent brake, you have more cooling on the front of the car and more space in the engine bay.

Without Hi Beam you could put upside down an EVO FMIC (or similar) for a very short piping, or a cold air intake for a box...


185 body shell seems stronger but is not necessary on a 300BHP light track car.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:10 am 
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
Car Model: ST205
When we stripped my ST205 shell the amount of flex it had was amazing. It was always the plan to fit a custom six point cross braced weld-in cage anyway. The cage braces the suspension turrets which means that I am not relying solely on the shell for structural integrity.

I am not a huge fan of bolt-in off the shelf cages. They rarely fit properly and the type of steel tube is not always known. For these reasons I would encourage people to check out the roll cage fabricators. It might not be as expensive as you think. The investment will pay off in the form of a nice stiff chassis with predictable handling characteristics.

My 2p!

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:27 am 
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Had a look at kerb weights last night. Heart is saying one thing, head is saying another :(

ST185: 1360-1440kg (depends what source you go with)
ST205: 1440kg (from GTFours.co.uk)
Impreza STi V2 RA: 1190kg
Evo 4 RS: 1260kg

Doesnt really matter what weight you believe, you need to lose 150-200kg from either just to get to the starting point for an Evo or Impreza. Just sucks they're so damned ugly!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:36 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:14 pm
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Location: sunny sleaford- lincolnshire
Car Model: ST205
thing is i really dont see evo4's as that fast at all anyhow, right taking into consideration the above information..

my friend had a evo4

my brother at the time had his totally standard st205

we went to the nurburgring and the st205 was as quick as the evo and chris was running a full straight through exhaust, induction, 1.2 bar boost... so i wouldnt from personal experience say an evo 4 was a step up at all... more to me a step down


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:44 am 
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I'm not convinced about the kerb weight for the ST205, unless the superstrut really is as heavy as ST185 bonnet & seats. A quick google of st205 kerb weight also shows claimed weights from 1380 to 1440. Does anyone have an owners handbook ?

Comparing a standard 205 and a 185 powered by a 205 engine, the 185 is noticably slower running the same boost, but then there are other factors such as underbonnet temps etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:17 pm 
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CDB do they both have same gearbox ratio & intercooler setup etc?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Same intercooler, different gearbox though I don't think ratios are that different (both hit approx 60 in 2nd).

The 185 has very heavy seats and bonnet compared to 205 and if the starting weight is the same then 185 has much more scope for lightening.

205 seems to have better airflow / cooling under bonnet, although the CS bumper would help ( CS bonnet helps but still a furnace under there ).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Location: Camberley, Surrey
Car Model: ST205
The brochure for the ST205 states 1440 as the kerb weight.

Curiously the figure is not in my owners manual - an original one from Toyota.

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