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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:20 pm 
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Hutch,
I for one am not trying to pick holes. It is merely observations based on my limited experience. Sooner or later one of these observations might actualy prove correct and enhance the system :D

For example, here's another one that I have learned the hard way from repluming my central heating ;) :-
Air in any liquid system will always try to flow uphill. In both TTE setups you can clearly see that on exiting the block the flow goes uphill all the way to the swirl pot. Any air will therefore naturally gather in the top of the pot as desired.
In Adrians system the top hose to the swirl pot appears to go downhill from the block exit. I might be wrong about this as it's not entirely clear from the pictures and my memory of how the real world system looks is rather bad. However, if this is the case then air will still try to collect at the high point - the block exit

Again, this is not a criticism, just an observation based on my knowledge of (gravity feed lol) heating systems ;). But at the same time I assume there's a reason why TTE bolted (or possibly cable tied :) :) :) ) the swirl pot to the strut brace too ;)

I have also just noticed a rather odd omission in Adrians setp which has me confused. Need to examine the header tank pictures more closely to try and figure it out ;)

By the way Don, Great Pictures! Thanks muchly for sharing. I forgot to mention this last time :(


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:58 pm 
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two_OH_five wrote:
I still can't see the value of taking the radiator overflow to the header tank though other than to possible stop coolant peeing everywhere if really bad stuff happens. If you were to fit a (say) 0.9bar cap there then if the pressure exceeds 0.9bar it will bleed air off from the rad to the header tank, functioning like the end tank takeoffs on the TTE cars

I agree, although the vertical end tanks on the TTE cars may make the vent lines more efficient compared to the horizontal top tank on our Koyo aluminium rads?

Quote:
I think you have the position of the restrictor and the pump reversed. In your diagram the thermostat (ignoring the restrictor for now) closing would prevent any flow round the block I think. If there was any it would be in the other direction via the water bypass. However, if you swap the two around then the pump can still pump water through the block via the bypass hose. Plus this arrangement would be more in line with the real world where the stat is in the end of the radiator hose effectively.

As I mentioned in my reply to Kris ideally the electric pump would simply loop in and out of the block. Its just that we haven't actually done this yet. I'd like to see what Adrian has done with this but he's away this month :( although Jon may know :). I'll mod my diagram to reflect 'as built' once its done.

Quote:
Badger Adrian a little more. The Caldina has a "simple" blanking plate fitted here. I had pictures of it before the great crash of 2006 :(
If anyone has an EPC that covers the ST215 it should be apparent there ;)

I'll see if I have any pics and also check my EPC which is quite recent.

Quote:
But, IMO, removing the oil warmer will increase oil pressure and flow since those doughnut cooler things are generally agreed to be fairly restrictive

Seeing as how TTE use a separate oil/water/radiator assembly (visible in my pics) rather than a doughnut I think your comments are likely to be pretty accurate. I don't envisage using any oil/water cooler/warmer assembly as this shouldn't be necessary on a track car if the engine is warmed up before its driven.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:04 pm 
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datajon wrote:
some intreasting insight, between tte and fensport..
i would not use the fensport setup as a bench mark.. it nothing like tte..in more ways than 1

The header tank arrangement is almost identical between TTE and Fennies. The swirl pot is in place of the TTE bleed/vent line on the radiator top hose. The radiator on the TTE car uses vertical end tanks rather than the OEM style horizontal top and bottom tanks. There may also be internal differences in the pump but as you can see from the pics the systems are very similar.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:39 pm 
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SONIC wrote:
Don what temp are you wanting to see when you are under track conditions ?

Hutch, a good guideline is to aim for engine coolant temps of around 75deg on track. Adrian is seeing this temp under load on the RR dyno with the 3S-GTE in his Gen7 using the electric pump, header, swirl and bleed lines. Track temps may be a different story but I'm hoping not :lol: I don't believe he has had an opportunity to test this setup on track.

Quote:
I WAS running anything close to 98/99 deg's on the old engine and the fan was cutting in @ 98 deg's this cooling setup was obviously way to high.

I agree these temps are alarming as any period of sustained high boost will result in localised coolant boiling in the head/block and potentially crack your block.

Quote:
On this engine i am running a lower temp stat and a fan controller taken from the hot end of the head. I now have not seen temps over 90 deg's with the fan set @ 88 Deg's even in traffic.

You might be lucky enough to survive on the road but I wouldn't risk your car on track unless you go the the header/swirl/vent setup. With your spec I would want to upgrade the cooling to this spec. Fennies are now agreeing with me that this essential on a high power 3S-GTE.

Quote:
Don are you using a fan controller ? (ecu controlled ?)

Fan spec is still to be finalised but they will be high cfm without shrouds activated automatically with a manual override. This is a compromise really as if the car was to be used purely on track then fans would not be required. My main objective is to run the fans in the pits along with the electric pump so that the coolant continues to circulate round the block and head at a good rate thus avoiding temperature spikes. Looking at the logs off my MoTeC the coolant temps go through the roof (>110deg C) even if you do a cooling down lap and then sit with the engine ideling for ten minutes. I want to eliminate or at least reduce this as much as possible.

Quote:
I believe tony is running a simular set up to adrian and the last time i was being nosey he was having overheating problems after each drag run. :cry:

Adrians Gen7 has moved the game on leaving Tonys setup behind. Good to see him using some of my ideas though :wink:

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:48 pm 
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two_OH_five wrote:
Air in any liquid system will always try to flow uphill. In both TTE setups you can clearly see that on exiting the block the flow goes uphill all the way to the swirl pot. Any air will therefore naturally gather in the top of the pot as desired. In Adrians system the top hose to the swirl pot appears to go downhill from the block exit. I might be wrong about this as it's not entirely clear from the pictures and my memory of how the real world system looks is rather bad. However, if this is the case then air will still try to collect at the high point - the block exit

Maybe a good reason to loop the block vent line back to the header tank as per the suggestion in your other post?

Quote:
I assume there's a reason why TTE bolted (or possibly cable tied :) :) :) ) the swirl pot to the strut brace too ;)

I think you are mistaking the water to air intercooler swirl pot as an engine coolant swirl pot. The TTE cars did not use an engine coolant swirl pot. I suspect the vent lines from the radiator top hose and end tanks perform the same coolant de-gassing function as a swirl pot.

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Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:39 pm 
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This post as all of yours normally are don becoming very interesting indeed, i agree that the cooling must be looked at in high powered 3sgte.I also will get in touch with friends in japan and the US to find out how they overcome cooling issues.
I doubt mine will be a track weapon as it is STILL my daily drive.Bloody quick daily drive but still a daily drive. I can bring my fan in as low as 70 deg's so i will be taking note of what the temps get to at japfest.
Keep up the good work don.

Im sorry about the picking holes thing, im sure between all of us we will overcome any problems encountered. After all this is why its a drivers club not just a owners club. :wink:
I would say this club has one of the most informative gt4 topics i have ever come across.

Hutch

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:46 pm 
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Don - my remarks were meant to say "oil cooler", not "oil filter", doh!

I read the flow through the cooler different to your diagram i.e. out of block, then up to pipe that returns water to thermostat housing. This would mean both ends of this pipe could be blocked and the cooler removed - should increase flow through the block?

This would then nicely tie in with a nice big air oil cooler instead of the water cooler?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:01 pm 
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the TTE engine coolant radiator is of different design than the fensport car above & Toyota oem , hence its not a good example to cross compare setups, tis a statement, nor ment as picking holes in others hard work..

Tte radiator tanks are located both sides of radiator, horizontal, not top & bottom vertical., as Don said…hence my post..lol


These’s two setups require slightly different approaches for configuration of cooling system requirements, I know this as I have worked on both setups….horizontal coolers I like , for many reasons…

Venting of the tte unit will require vents located at upper section of side tank as per pictured above ,filling / bleeding will be some what differently configured compared to oem,

oem can be vented from the filler neck, along the circulation route, probably why tte did what they did....


Whilst on the subject of cooling system, core plug pinning only every seen a handful of engines that ran extra retaining system on coreplugs, mostly allen bolts for retention, it is quite unlikely that pinning of the coreplug to the engine block would be required.

Even running increased pressure as on race engine coolant systems, this will be very much lower than the level of pressure required to force core plugs out from engine block, some 4000 bhp nitro power eng/units, require this sort of approach , special design & construction to this level, not applicable on this type of engine, I could be wrong, maybe the 3sgte has weak coreplugs, its been known before..

however if such level of coolant pressure is required, you will need to rethink what type of coolant pump to use, stock unit will start to leak around the seal under such increased levels of coolant pressure working environment.



their are a number of lines on the tte block, as pictured above, shows the horizontal water hose, block bleed, etc, do you know what all the lines are for, as its difficult to chasse the route from a picture.

Maybe supper impose description…just to make it simple for me, thanks…

I find its hard to understand that the function of “ bleed vent “ on the side of the engine block, some 30mm from block deck, would be of use towards bleeding trapped air, as I understand, air rises…hence the engine I have worked on have their gasses vent on the cylinderhead only bleed vent on block for service …, unless the engine block is very differently laid out around the water galleries/ ways etc.

the tte engine is set to an approximate limited of 300 bhp/ 400 torq,?..... this would not generate anywhere near the amount of heat say 600 bhp would.

I have ran probably more power for the last year on one engine than the tte rally engine ever produced un regs, my engine coolant temps never go into 90c land what so-ever, generally they are around 77/88 cc max, ..

the 503 thingy engine circuit racer power plant layout would indeed have requirements to quench the extra power available, so probably a pass on from that area of development.

I do think you are heading in the correct direction..

the setup I have opted for : coolant swirl pot, as per spec, engine bay expansion tank pressurised type from open looped radiator setup for gas vent, this I know works on 90% of race engines…

the only extra modification could be an upper cylinderhead gases vent , until I have finished hacking 185 cylinderheads apart for accurate procedure of vent hole installation..

cossie have cylinderhead core plugs, this makes it much easyier…you can cross drill from inside the opening, getting the angle required for interception of the upper water way..lol

interested to get this nailed down, i have 2 engines on the build, so’ should i drill the block vent / bleed or not, i have drilled every thing esle out, don't want to be missing something…

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:54 pm 
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Smart Alec :D :D wrote:
I think you are mistaking the water to air intercooler swirl pot as an engine coolant swirl pot. The TTE cars did not use an engine coolant swirl pot. I suspect the vent lines from the radiator top hose and end tanks perform the same coolant de-gassing function as a swirl pot.

I knew that **cough** **shuffles feet**

So I've loked at Adrians setup and I still can't figure it out
In the pictures the water system return pipe from the header tank does not have a hose clip on it that I can see. I can't for the life of me work out why it doesn't pop off since it should be in a pressurized system from what I can see :?

Datajon wrote:
I have ran probably more power for the last year on one engine than the tte rally engine ever produced un regs

**cough**illegal Restrictor**cough**

I'd imagine they would be running figures pretty close to yours Jon ;)
I'd also be suprised if they were running thin walled blocks or even thick wall as we know them.

Thinking about the radiator swirl pot thing you'd probably be best off using a stock Toyota one. While an end tank setup would be better the Mr T one has the filler cap located in a distinct hump in the top tube which should help with air collection


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:48 am 
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I cant add anything technical, as i'm way beyond my depths but this certainly makes for interesting reading.

It may be usefull too me however in years to come.

Thanks for posting guys, Amen

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ST205 with a little help from a ST215...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:16 am 
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two_OH_five wrote:
So I've loked at Adrians setup and I still can't figure it out. In the pictures the water system return pipe from the header tank does not have a hose clip on it that I can see. I can't for the life of me work out why it doesn't pop off since it should be in a pressurized system from what I can see :?

This header tank is only fitted with a 0.9bar cap and maybe the pressure in this part of the system is pretty low anyway as the tank will be empty to begin with. Pressure will only rise when coolant gets hot and expands into the header tank. I think I'd still fit a hose clip tho!

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:18 am 
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Isn't adrian running a non pressurised system,My knowledge of cooling systems as many is limited.However COOLING to me means a flow of liquid through the engine and head, the liquid then passes through the radiator(heat exchanger) where the temp is reduced ready to flow back through the system again. I was under the impression that the flow of the liquid is quite important. If the flow is to quick then the heat transfer is reduced, also if the flow is to slow, the liquid heats up more. If you bleed the system from the highest point in the system then that should increase efficincy. I think that the pump does cavitate which also causes air bubbles in the system,which makes the cooling system less effective. Putting a swirl tank in the system high up would of course allow the air and water to bleed and at the same time replenish the system. This is just my own thoughts and i might be way off. Just some of us like to grasp it in a numpty version.


Hutch

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:33 pm 
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SONIC wrote:
Isn't adrian running a non pressurised system
He ran the Gen7 at Rotorstock unpressurised and experienced boiling of the coolant. Jon said he'd built the system to run pressurised otherwise the vent/bleed lines won't work properly. I think Adrian had prviously run the Corolla unpressurized and just assumed the Gen7 was the same.

You are quite right about the flow rates they can be either too high or too low. The OEM mechanical pump is optimised to flow the correct volumes of coolant at between 4 and 6,000rpm. This is why a lot of track cars use an oversize pulley to drive the pump as it will mean the pump is still in its optimum flow regime despite the engine pulling 7 - 8,000rpm. If the pump overspeeds it will cavitate and bubbles will get into the coolant leading to a dramatic loss in cooling efficiency particularly in the hot spots prone to localised boiling (e.g. between cylinders 2 and 3 on the 3S-GTE :evil: )

The use of an electric pump operating at optimum flow all the time irrespective of engine rpm should eliminate any bubbles formed through cavitation of teh OEM pump operating outside its design range. I suppose you could achieve the same effect using on oversize water pump pulley but then at low rpm and in traffic there could be insufficient coolant flow. The O/S pulley is therefore really only an option for track cars IMO.

By far the most critical part of the cooling system is the pressure in the block and head as the higher pressure you can run the higher the boiling point of the coolant. Some Nissan Group C turbo race engines ran pressures as high as 45psi and the TTE ST185 uses rad caps rated at 2.5bar (37psi) so the pressure they are running in the block and head must be even higher! Toyota struggled to control coolant temps with the 3S-GTE. I am sure this is why Toyota eventually went for a separate water jacket feed to the head of their 3S-GTM/503E Le Mans 2 litre turbo.

The design of the head gasket is critical in building pressure and probably explains why the holes in the gasket don't match the casting holes in the block and head. Apparently these holes are made oversize so that it is easier to remove the sand in the sand casting process!

The relationship between flow, pressure and temperature is complex and I wouldn't pretend to understand how this works. You only have to look at the problems some of the F1 teams had last year when the V8's were introduced. e.g. Red Bull got the wrong heat rejection figures from Ferrari and designed a cooling system that was inadequate.

The suitability of the larger Koyo R1958 Aluminium radiator in a high output 3S-GTE has still to be tested. Designing a proper intake shroud for the radiator should also drop coolant temps by a few degrees. (up to 5 deg in the case of Owen Devts 500bhp Evo) Although I am using the TTE setup as a guideline I am very conscious of the need to proceed with caution gradually ramping up the performance once the engine is in the car. My MoTeC and AIM MXL dataloggers should prove to be very useful.

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Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:08 pm 
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Further update to the cooling mods planned for my new engine build. Adrian from Fensport has given me the green light to publish the pics I took last week of his 3S-GTE electric water pump installation.

You will note that it is in the same location as indicated in the cooling layout diagram in the top of this thread. Adrian was keen to stress that this setup has not yet been tested on either the drag strip or on circuit. I will be particularly interested to see what coolant temps he sees on track as it should give me a good idea whether the 80litre/min pump will be OK for my intended track use. Very good of Fennies to do my R&D testing :P

Image

Image

Image

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Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:21 pm 
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Don,

Whatta new on this project?
Shed the light, please..

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