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Suspension Settings & Setup http://www.gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1721	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Diceman [ Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Suspension Settings & Setup
Wondering if anyone has any advice on standard alignment settings for the Gt-Four which suit track work. Any advice on how to get the Four to handle on track would be much appreciated rather than just relying on mechanical grip as we seem to do. In essence I cant help but feel that the Four in standard or mildly modded form does not feel balanced on track - the usual heavy use of front tyres and understeer is getting a little tedious. I would like to alleviate the problem rather than just going for track rubber to increase mechanical grip - the limits will still be met with more serious consequences. I have been reading a little and have been advised to raise ride height (and hence rollcentre) on flowing/undulating circuits to endeavour to transfer more load to outside tyres. Any advice appreciated

Author:	Muddy Water [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:05 am ]
Post subject:	ST185 Handling
Hey JP, In response to your question and after our discussion last night, here's the link I was talking about: http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/RH ... aGT4_a.htm Pretty much answers your questions I think. I've gone for Whiteline strut tower braces front and back, Whiteline 20mm rear roll/sway bar, new Toyota drop links front and back, Whiteline camber bolts, TEIN Super Street Coilover Suspension with upper mounts + the EDFC kit and a Fensport Polyurethane Bushes Handling kit. I've also managed to pick up some Polyurethane engine mount bushes. Anyway, match this up with a set of 18 x 8 alloy wheels shod with something like Toyo Proxes and I reckon you'll have something that will handle superbly. Watch this space

Author:	two_OH_five [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:
DJ posted my settings over on the OC ages ago. I can't remember if I've ever posted them here As we discussed last night I also don't think that concrete dampers are the way forward. I suspect the car needs more ARB support to counteract bodyroll instead of winding up damper settings which seems to make the car a little skittish. I'd go with uprated front ARBs possibly with adjustable droplinks although these are not essential I have stock settings for camber and caster (no adjustable topmounts here ) with a 0 toe setup to give neutral turn in and understeer. I suspect some monkying with negative toe would help solve the issue of understeer and camber adjustment is going to make a difference too. Basically it needs a proper adjustable setup and then some dedicated track time to do back to back comparisons with different setups. Suspension tuning is a dashed long winded process

Author:	datajon [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:
for circuit setup, you need a balance of the following: toe, camber,caster, roll, arb, springage, compression & rebound.. tyre choice & pressure is also very important.. as to achieve a setup that works, requires telemetry data, feel..each track requires adjustments. road setup is no use for a race track setup, even trackdays . choice of components used is key ....often overlooked

Author:	TrackToyFour [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:
I'd concur with Steve. Even with the TRD springs and 4-way dampers plus Whiteline ARB on stiffest setting theres still too much roll. The Pilbeam ARB's on the Elise are almost twice the diameter of the stock bar and this is to control roll on a 700kg car. With almost twice the weight in the Four you can imagine what's required to control roll. I'd be really interested to experience Kris or Looseys ST205 TEIN/EDFC setup on track ....... hint hint!

Author:	Loosey [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:
lol at Don! Do you think you could handle a totally stock car on track these days bearing in mind you'd have no guages or star trek heads up displays to distract you from the wildlife passing you by!!??!!

Author:	TrackToyFour [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:
Well I've been driving a 'totally stock' Snow White for a year now so I'm nicely acclimatised Track day/evening coming up soon too

Author:	Loosey [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:12 am ]
Post subject:
When and where?

Author:	datajon [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:
spring rates before arb rate... straight arb is more productive than one that has half dozen bends... Don you must have a fat 4, if its double your lotus. 1400kg.. most rear arb run hollow straight ones, well ones that work, not solid bar..hence why such diameter..

Author:	two_OH_five [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:
Datajon wrote: Don you must have a fat 4, if its double your lotus. 1400kg Erm, do you remember having mine on the scales lol 1400Kg is lightweight in comparison

Author:	datajon [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:
yes Steve, the scales never recovered... was one of the heavier breed of wagon's i have weighed... not all faffs are fat, some or more slender than others. but they all handle the same.... tame

Author:	datajon [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:
On a more serious note, I would suggest relocating the rear arb to the rear side of the rear diff, being that the sub frame is situated there too, would be a dandy place to run a STRAIGHT anti roll bar, more than enough room. Least then you can hook it up next to the hub, not the suspension tube body..

Author:	Muddy Water [ Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Interesting topic...
I have just received the last of the list of my suspension parts. Will be looking at fitting during May (on holiday for a couple of weeks). One thing I know for sure is that it isn't going to be straight forward... different conditions warrant different setups. Guess I'll be doing some R&D on the subject.

Author:	datajon [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:42 am ]
Post subject:
i do find it amusing what people have to say about suspension improvements, yet have no first hand experience in the setting up..anything in there life. having spent some time in club level motorsport, setting various types of cars its not an easy task, unless you have all equipment to hand you will be fighting a loosing battle. people's first advice, tends to lead towards white line arb, nice that will sort it, what about all the other more important stuff.. my list of todo's . check & if required replace all suspension bushes thoughout spring rates to suite suspension setup and function, many sets required. full adjustable compression & rebound dampers spherical top mounts reinforced suspension pickup points, inner wings, etc roll cage, as the body will be flexing.... as for different setups, yes this is true, but unless you'll racing at a competitive level its pointless, you need full telemetry, driver commitment, this takes time. i made adjustment to the 185ratter every other day, changing springs,geometry unitl got something that offered a good level of improvement, changes towards level of g force under cornering, thats the important stuff.

Author:	two_OH_five [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:
I believe it's mostly a bang per buck think though Jon Most people are not after the last 0.01g of corner force What they want is something cheap and easy giving massive improvement for minimal outlay. Then, for the 205 at least, there's the issue of lack of choice. There simply aren't off the shelf parts out there that allow the real level of tweaking required. Look at my old mini for eg. That had adjustable everything and it all came off the shelf. Rosejointed, coilovered etc etc you can just go to miniworld (for eg) with circa 500 notes and walk out with a completely adjustable setup Certainly on the 205 there's no option to do that at so you end up looking at customized builds which is going to cost a fortune Unless you happen to be, well, you lol, with a nicely setup experimentation workshop to convert stock parts into bespoke you have to get someone unfamiliar with the car to build parts with unpredictable results. Sure you can go to Leda etc etc and they will build you a nice set of adjustable struts. But they will also be in the dark regards spring rates, damping rates etc etc and getting this right is going to needs loads of trial and terror. As you know you can get into the ballpark with book numbers but gitting it right is a matter of carefully controlled experimentation. Very time consuming and more potential outlay on new springs, dampers etc etc. Then there's the kit required. Ideally corner scales are going to be needed for setting ride height, adjusting for driver weight etc etc. A 4wheel alignment is really necessary multiple times for a given damper setup to tweak max performance It can mostly be done "on the cheap" but it takes huge time and effort and you still need several accurate sessions on a proper alignment setup to perfect it. I used to have all sorts of jigs for basic mini tweaking. I had gurtmongous poles which bolted to the hubs allowing accurate setting of toe. You could work out thrust angle too. Then there was the camber gauges. Accurate setting of this was really only possible because we had a scissor ramp back then giving guaranteed points of reference, especially combined with the tailor made car cradle which bolted to it. I never ever figured out a way to reliably DIY caster though. Sure it could be done I'd set up the suspension to something that seemed about right then dial in the geometry. Then go out and drive it, usually with horrible results. Then come back and bin all the "think it should be right settings" and start again until I had the damping set up about right feeling. Then began all of the the geometry tuning with that damper setup. It took weeks and weeks of widdling about to get anything close to an ideal feeling setup. If I had G sensing logging you could probably have multiplied that even further since (from my experience) the absolute optimum paper setup rarely seems to suit an individual driving style. For eg I tend to go a little understeery so I enter slow but tend to come out fast etc etc etc etc. Everyone else wants a slightly different feel from their car which suits them Once I'd got all that set up "just so" I'd still always have to go back to the tyre shop for a 4wheel alignment, corner weighting etc etc to actually make everything perfect. I was lucky in that they "sponsored" me with free access to their kit otherwise it would have cost me hugely All of the above also excludes simple settings like tyre compunds, pressures which only serve to make setup issues worse lol And all of that is in a lightweight car that intrinsicly handles better than the 4 and about which there is a huge wealth of setup info to get you started. It just gets worse when you throw a hugely nose heavy naturally understeery 4WD package into the mix Plus I must confess I make assumptions that probably aren't right. I tend to expect that people have checked the basics and upgraded the basics before they start asking questions simply because that's what I would do. Bearing all that in mind I think it's quite possible to suggest a setup for "average Joe" based on what's available and based on the goal. For eg, JP wants a nice trackday setup which works on the road too and which largely comes out of a "handling improvements" tin The choices are quite simple. TRD springs and dampers, whiteline adjustable rear ARB and a good check of all the suspension linkages to eliminate any play. Then throw an average alignment into the mix and you're going to have a car that handles much better than stock for minimum (lolololololol) outlay. For a slightly more adjustable setup then go with the Tein coilovers Jon wants something which might possible be competetive in a race series. Clearly the above JP setup will work but won't be ultimate. You're going to be looking for more spring choices, wider damping ranges, more geometry adjustment etc etc A proper adjustable coilover setup is really the only way forward to allow proper corner weighting, height adjustment etc etc. Youre going to want either re-valvable dampers or more ideally fully adjustable remote resevoir jobs mated to superstrut casings Full geometry adjustment will be needed either through bespoke suspension arms or at least adjustable topmounts and/or camber bolts (yuk) At this point track rubber means you'll be needing to strenthen/de flex all of the stock bushed to remove unwanted geometry changes due to mountings. You'll end up with a car that handles beautifully (within the intrinsic chassis limits) on track but is a right pain in the proverbial on the potholed barely maintained surfaces that are the UK roads

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