How did you get this figure?
Please educate me!
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| VE of stock head is measured http://www.gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2279 |
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| Author: | Prochorus familiaris [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | VE of stock head is measured |
Very nice indeed! Yamaha - well done. 117% - fantastic result |
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| Author: | Kris [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:08 pm ] |
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How did you get this figure? Please educate me!
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| Author: | Prochorus familiaris [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:50 pm ] |
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Flowbench measurements. + analysis after getting logs. If shortly. BTW - the stock turbo CT26C2 contrary to all myths that it weakens after >6000 rpm is able to make 1.2 with 60% of wastegate closure at 8.5K rpm! Easily! |
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| Author: | two_OH_five [ Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:02 am ] |
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I think the issue with the CT at high rpm is the highly restrictive hotside choking VE Unfortunately many have proved it's ability to make lots of boost in the form of boost creep 
Interesting info on the head though. I haven't reverse engineered VE curves from my datalogging yet but they do suggest that even with the turbo technics turbo it's tailing off over about 6k |
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| Author: | Gary ST165 [ Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:25 am ] |
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Q: please confirm ct26c2 = stock st205 turbocharger....and where did you source that info... please  ?
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| Author: | Diceman [ Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:09 am ] |
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Hmm, I woudl like more info on what exactly you stuck on teh flow bench m8. Just head? Head with cams & Valves? head, cams, valves, inlet manifold, TVIS, Throttle body? You get my drift. ST185 engines seriously start to run out of flow at the top end of the RPM range, Identifying where the restriction is at and sorting the problem is my aim. If you are saying that the head alone is not the restriction - that makes perfect sense
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| Author: | Prochorus familiaris [ Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:59 pm ] |
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In order: VE for NA Eng-s = relation between quantity of actual income charge to the potential income charge, which could fill the cylinder + CC at definite T & P of environment VE for TC Eng-s = relation between quantity of actual income charge to the potential income charge, which could fill the cylinder + CC at T & P before TB So, if to know the T&P before TB + if to measure the charge we can get the VE (theoretical charge could be easily counted). After run & analyzing the logs the VE was calculated by the computer as 117%.. Previously the test of the head was done with flowbench. It was head with all stuff from the inlet ports. The test result is 116.7% So, Diceman, this VE was extracted by real run Cyclical consumption is 1450 grams/cycle/5500 Mass consumption is 1200 kg/6500 Eng = 135K kilos Turbo = stock, 135K kilos keeps >1 bar at 8500, cams (In,Ex - are equal) = 8.7mm lift, 289/0.2 mm; 281/0.38 mm; 231/1.0 mm Pipercross AF, FMIC (nothing special), exhaust is ordinary - not stock, but nothing special, fuelpump from US Supra, 690cc Siemens high impedance injectors (85% duty at 8250). All other stuff is stock, fuel is 95. ECU = "Janvar" J5LS program (soviet ECU from old Lada's) Also many smalls - sensors bla-bla to make new ECU work. Temp logs - from 9C to 19C maximum. The answers on the other questions: - *bleep* perfomance of stock car is because of ECU & cams, the "iron component" inside 205 is brilliant - ct26c2 = stock turbocharger from st205 - the source of this info is this car: http://www.interform.ru/st/page_01.htm (if to look all pages, you'll see all the story wich led to the final figures) - yes, hot part is restrictive, but it's enough to make 1 bar at cold at 2 liters & 8500 revs
- again: *bleep* perfomance of stock car is because of ECU & cams, the "iron component" inside 205 is brilliant, >1 bar at 8500 while 60% of WG closed That is the pressure & spoolup at target wastegate duty 50% http://photofile.ru/photo/maxi--rpd--/2 ... 367390.jpg (if you'll change last digit, rest logs could be viewed) Other logs could be listed. P.S. - you can be sceptic a lot, it's your buisiness, but car rides with mentioned above results ))
P.S1: CR is still 8.5, of course it will be reduced avoiding the damage! PPPPPPPPSSSSSSS: the task is not to make an oda to this project, the task is to say, that yamaha head for st205 is very seductive & nice! That's why it goes so nicely & can work with broad cams. |
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| Author: | Diceman [ Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:45 pm ] |
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Aha, I see - Steve & I were looking at doing similar. Apologies I thought you had a ST185! |
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| Author: | two_OH_five [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:05 am ] |
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Do you have VE or flow charts available? I would quite like to reverse engineer VE one day. I probably have enough maps to get data for most basic configurations and I have data for mine with the TT hybrid with less restrictive hotside Even with the TT hybrid which really opens the top end up VE is still dropping above about 6krpm and I'm injecting progressivly less fuel as revs rise to achieve the same AFR So there is a definite mechanical restriction still. I suspect cams and cam timing will make a quantum leap again |
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| Author: | Prochorus familiaris [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:42 pm ] |
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Steve, I wrote: perfomance of stock car is because of ECU & cams That's why your result with hybrid is not of the top. |
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| Author: | two_OH_five [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:19 pm ] |
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Agreed completely 110%. Well, apart from the stock ECU bit as that doesn't effect the VE and it's also not something I'm constrained by I can clearly see that there's a VE issue at high rpm as I'm removing injector duty over 6k rpm to maintain constant AFR What I would like to achieve There's a baseline for the head now I have a baseline for stock head + stock cams + TT hybrid In the fulness of time I might end up with figures for TT hybrid, stock head + aftermarket cams Then possibly the results of gasflow/portmatching inlet and exhaust manifolds IF it all worked out it might provide an area which is going to reap the most returns for your work. I rather suspect that the stock turbo and the stock cams/cam timing setup will be the two biggest issues I know with the TT hybrid there's still a restriction somewhere. What I really ought to do is install an exhaust manifold pressure sensor to see if the hybrid is still the major restriction or if it's elsewhere.... |
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| Author: | datajon [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:48 pm ] |
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Top Job Prochorus familiaris, maybe now the doubters will stop doubting.. :wink and subsequently update there views and information, Yamaha have great insight into cy head design, they started way before Toyota even thought about 3s engines. Best of all Quote: "ECU = "Janvar" J5LS program (soviet ECU from old Lada's)
Also many smalls - sensors bla-bla to make new ECU work. " If i could give you karma you would have it everyday . 185 engine is just as caperable as a 205 fitting with like for like hardware. |
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| Author: | datajon [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:08 pm ] |
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I hope you don't mind me posting this up, nice job.btw 
nothing like over driving a fuel pump a little , worked for me on the ratter. |
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| Author: | Prochorus familiaris [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:49 pm ] |
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Hmm... I thought somebody understood me... The idea #2 (1st is dedicated to brillaint design of 3S-GTE head) is very simple - with 3-4K USD you can reach mush more, than flooshing your money just to make nothing.. Ok, no matter
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| Author: | datajon [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:06 pm ] |
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umm,have you seen many heads, Yamaha 3sgte head is good , no means amazing, take a look at a yb cy head, they produce much more power,better port angle bigger valves, flow more in stock trim . when i mapped the rat185, tve table showed good ramp to a table top, not as good as others.  its not just the head alone, its the sum of all parts that make for a good end result.
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