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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:03 pm 
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Something ive Been playing about with. with peltiers and FMIC and a RMR mani, thing is ive made the controller and can wang it down to freezing ie:frosty.is this going to be a problem running the front mount and/or the RMR to cold ? i had a quick chat with Nigel and got some input but just looking for more ifs and buts.

Also ive not done any rrs with this yet its just still an infant lol.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:43 pm 
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The colder the better as far as I'm aware.

Are you going to use the Peltier to cool the FMIC continuously or is it going to be used once temps creep up or pre-race?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:53 am 
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The controller i made for now is just a manual ie trim pot, as this was quick but am looking at doing an auto
controller which will work off a couple of strategically placed thermistors/sensors so far ive only used 4 1.5"x1.5" on each end can of the front mount and 4 in line with each of the RMR runners but not going to run constantly as i think reliability might creep in but this will come apparent with more testing.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:25 pm 
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How quickly is it able to cool the IC down?

Are you using thermal paste or anything like that to improve thermal conductivity?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:20 pm 
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Its virtually on tap i heated the fmic in front of a portable fire in my workshop powered it up and within 5 seconds it was cold again this is with the amount of pelts above but the more pelts the quicker.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:37 pm 
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How much juice are those devices drawing?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:20 pm 
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Hmm, Nice to see someone playing with new ideas.

They do seem to draw a fair bit of current (8.5A max for a 70W Peltier plate) but by the looks of it they can re-charge the system when not in use. Not sure if you have looked in to this?

Sounds an ideal idea of for short trem drag or dyno runs.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:36 pm 
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AWOOOOGA, AWOOOOGA, NERD ALERT, NERD ALERT, AWOOOOGA, AWOOOOGA

People of a normal disposition might wish to skip this post......

AWOOOOGA, AWOOOOGA, NERD ALERT, NERD ALERT, AWOOOOGA, AWOOOOGA

Now that it's just me and JP I'll throw a few approximate numbers in

Specific heat capacity of air 0.001297 J·(cm-3)·(K-1) or 0.001297 joules to raise 1cc of air by 1C

At 6k rpm the engine is doing 100rev/s
For each revolution it consumes 1000cc of air

So it's consuming 100,000ccs/sec

But assuming you're running at 1 bar double this to 200,000ccs/sec

Typical (CT20) outlet temps are 60C above ambient. Call it 50C to make the math simple :D

So per sec 200,000ccs are raised 50C which requires 12970J

1 watt = 1 Joule per sec so you're looking at a 13KW cooling requirement

So given you've added 280W of cooling I don't think it's going to overcool the input charge :lol:

It's certainly an interesting idea to overcome heatsoak though

At idle you're only looking at 1/20th the airflow and very little heat, maybe 10C (1/5 of the heat) at worst, possibly much lower. If you said 100W of heat to be dissipated you'd possibly be over estimating....

It should keep up at idle giving you a nice cool frontmount even after a jam/start line queue


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:40 pm 
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Yep it was more aimed to reduce heat soak more than a power enhancer and yes jp i did think about the flip side of these but at the mo its confined to the shed not going to get hard results until after crimbo when ive finished doing what im doing with the ST205.
Thanks for the equation 2 o 5 :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:16 pm 
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Steve - I am sure your maths is correct and I understand where you are coming from.

I still like the idea as, subject to weight of the chilly willy units, you could possibly get shot of the alternator for a track/race car. Lack of alternator will free up some power (yes I know 2/10 of *bleep* all squared) but also space & weight.

Once you factor in a reduction in thermal gain due to "I don't drive always pedal to the metal and thing to the floor" and the fact that this uses essentially previously wasted energy I can see development being fast. Sounds a fantastic eco friendly idea. It would be interesting in seeing how supercooling the IC during warm up laps would effect overall temps at the end of a race.

You never know one day they manage to harness enough heat energy from the exhaust to drive a decent size centrif electric fan (electric supercharger anyone?) :-)

Even now I can see some interesting uses - I wonder if the F1 guys are using this to cool their fuel yet during the race?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:43 pm 
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JP,

Wasn't dissing the idea just pointing out the cooling limitations. I think there's merit in the idea for keeping things cool under traffic and possibly slow moving situations

I'm sure I've read of someone developing a combined turbo compound setup using an exhaust driven alternator to power the crank via another electric motor which is kind of the scenario you're talking about. Forget who was developing it though


On a track car the alternator is already potentially defunct (unless running at night or races are long)
On the 3S space isn't such a problem once you move the alternator to the PS pump location and fit the electronic power steeing :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Heh steve - I didnt mean it to come across as defending!

I like the fact that we have some maths to indicate how much of an influence it will have. Quantifying how relevent each effect is important - I know plenty of theories but have little quantative evidence of how big an effect each is.

Your calcs certainly indicate that a top mount intercooler made entirely of Peltier cells is highly unlikely at present :-) The calcs however do give us a guide on where it may be suitable to use them and how.

I can see this technology being quite important in the future, does anyone know how long they have been on the market or if there is any further technological advances to be made?

In my industry there is great endeavours being made to try and redistribute heating and cooling around different areas of a building (e.g. server rooms remove heat and provide A/C to offices) It seems these units can do this by generating electricity from excess heat which can then be fed to another plate in another area to cool. I am hence very interested in this technology and how it may develope in the future.

It may be one to watch the shares on guys :-)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:25 pm 
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JP see your thinking along the same lines i was when i came across these mad little things they have so much scope, we actually use them at work to control the temps on high power laser diodes before these where used reliability was pants, as far as power drawn the ones i have draw milliamperes and run between 6v-12v i couldnt seem to find much on the web as far as uses/used in motorsport apps but there was something being devised as heat to power gen but it got a bit to tech for me lol


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:29 pm 
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Very interesting stuff, I think for a sprint or hillclimb car they'd be great for dragging the FMIC down to sub-ambient temperature.

However looking at two_OH_five's maths I can't see how they can only be drawing milliamperes at 12v and yet have sufficient cooling ability to suck all the heat out of an FMIC.

banzaibaz, do you have some sort of accurate temperature measuring device that can quantify the temp drop that occurs and over what time frame?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:44 pm 
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8.5A is quite a drain Dan!


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