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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:18 pm 
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Guys,

One of my future mods will be uprated shocks (KYB or Koni)/springs (eibach 30/35mm).

Once these are fitted is there any specific settings I should go for when it comes to alignment, camber/castor?

The car will have Comp MO 17's fitted once this is done.

When I had my mk1 MR2 I chose TRD settings with a biased camber setting of 1.0 degree neg. front and 1.5 degree neg. rear......
How would this apply to a (my) GT4?

Thanks

Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:09 am 
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Steve - seems early days for the GT4 in terms of suspension and alignment settings.

From what I've seen very little is available in the way of specific settings, but I'm sure this will change in time :D

Castor is not adjustable on the stock suspension, or on 98% of the available kits, but I hope this too will change in time...

Camber front and rear also requires aftermarket suspension etc. From very limited setting up/knowledge 1 deg negative on the front of the 205 is not enough...

But of course all this is imho :D

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:51 am 
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Kris wrote:
Steve - seems early days for the GT4 in terms of suspension and alignment settings.

From what I've seen very little is available in the way of specific settings, but I'm sure this will change in time :D

Castor is not adjustable on the stock suspension, or on 98% of the available kits, but I hope this too will change in time...

Camber front and rear also requires aftermarket suspension etc. From very limited setting up/knowledge 1 deg negative on the front of the 205 is not enough...

But of course all this is imho :D


I know the MR2 settings would not work on a GT4. Would stock settings be needed then if I were to fit lowering springs/shocks?

The MR2's had the little oval lobe on both front and rear shocks to allow for camber adjustment, I know the GT4's dont......but I'm sure there are camber bolts that can be bought and fitted so you can adjust/set it up.
Anyone on here done this?

Thanks for the reply.

Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:49 am 
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i believe datajon knows rather a lot regarding suspension setup on the GT4, particularly on the 165 as he has tweaked his alignment several times

you can buy whiteline camber and antilift adjustment bolts, afaik steve gillies and ricky lee have these fitted. again to the 165 but i have a feeling they will also fit the 185 as the cars are rather similar in many ways

www.whiteline.com.au

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:36 pm 
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On the 165, and 185, you can with certain mods, get everything adjustable.

If you lower the car in its ride height this will have an effect on the camber and toe reading, both front and rear axles, the castor values seem to stay the same, give or take a bit, depends how low you go. Little note, low is not always the best route especially if you use the four on public roads, also the angle of the suspension arm has an optimum set-up, going to far either side will cause funny characteristics in the handling department.

Now I don’t know much about the gt4, apart from what I have played with, these models are the 165, 185, have yet to play with a 205 properly.

I use accelerometers to show values of G force under cornering, as well as acceleration, this way I can measure any improvements gains.

It seems that the stock setting are for stock driving, massive under steer, with narrow track and low castor, this is a safe set-up, it will not induce to much rear end drifting, and for most is ok.

Now if you like to have the rear out under a controlled manner, with a good acting front for steering, and not to much power on under steer, you need to revise the complete set-up.

For a car to handle in my book you need to understand some rules.

If a car handles well in a straight line it will be rubbish going round bends, plain and simple.
If you have low power, you have a set-up for bends, under braking etc

if you have lots of power , you need a set-up that will allow you to get the power down early. Round corners and out etc.

My experience with some rally & circuit racing set-ups, shows that this is most probably harder to do, than mapping the ecu.

For any suspension improvement, first thing is to change the standard bushes with aftermarket up rated sort.

HOWEVER, DO NOT change the rear control arm rubberised spherical bearing bushes.

Any fitment of poly bushes here will induce poor handling, and for those of you who disagree, I have proof, so come down and see me, I will show you on my CCD exact 6000 as used in motor sport teams, this unit makes the standard wheel aligners as used in most tyre shops look like a child’s toy.

After bushes and bearing have been suitable improved, the next step would be the springs with shocks, preferred route coil over’s as you can adjust height & dampening affect, then the ARB’s, top adjustable mounts camber/castor, with camber bolts etc for front and rear if needed.
Once you can adjust the perimeters of the vehicle geometry you can start with the set-up.

Now different driving styles require different set-ups.

If you use the car on the road, then a track day set up would not be the best thing to use, a road set-up used on a track, yet again will show for poor handling

A compromise can be had.

An increase of castor , with a static reading of –1.5 to 2.0 camber.

toe depending on the driving style, the four runs very little stock, , toe in helps from midway apex out of a bend, toe out will help change of direction at the start of the turn, but has poor properties after the turn has been completed, both have to be blended with other settings.

Depending on body roll, anti roll bars, spring weight, all these will have a big change on the out come, what is used on one car, will not mean its any good on another, unless the same hardware used.

I have some settings for the 165, 185 on the wheel aligner computer, will get them on the lap top, and post a few.

I can offer full conerweighting and 4 wheel alignment if required.

this was a very over steery setup as used , you can see the vehicle data base to the right.some slight suspension damage , causing some Variance in setup readings, most vehicles get a little bent over time.

Image
this is what the machine looks like
Image
calibrating the metering heads
Image
vehicle data base
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:30 pm 
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Thanks Datajon.
Which bushes should be used to replace worn bushes then?
I had the High and Tight bushes fitted to my MR2 mk1 and that helped. I didn't get round to fitting the Koni's and springs before I sold it so I could'nt compare after.
As I'm on a budget I would choose to have hadnling setup for normal road use and not track use TBH so that'd be my requirements for the toe in/camber etc etc.
If you can advise on a set of suitable bushes then I would invest in some along with shocks and springs and then have it all fitted together and then aligned.
Cheers for the detailed reply...much appreciated.
I'll let you know in the future about popping to see you to get it all setup....

thanks

Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:37 pm 
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Steve - I would recommend the front and rear anti-roll bar bushes, probably ~£15 per set, 1 set front and 1 set rear.

The trailing arm bushes for the rear hubs would also get my vote.

The ARB bushes are straight forward, the trailing arms are not :(

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95 ST205 - slept for 10 years, now waking up...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:41 pm 
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Kris wrote:
Steve - I would recommend the front and rear anti-roll bar bushes, probably ~£15 per set, 1 set front and 1 set rear.

The trailing arm bushes for the rear hubs would also get my vote.

The ARB bushes are straight forward, the trailing arms are not :(


You know it..... :lol:
The ones on my MR2 mk1 were 19 years old......blowtorched the buggers out.... :lol:
ARB's should be ok to do myself......trailing arms are a PITA.....not something I could do on my own TBH......would need a garage/mate to do that with me.

Cheers Kris
Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:12 pm 
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datajon wrote:
HOWEVER, DO NOT change the rear control arm rubberised spherical bearing bushes.


Not sure what Jon is referring to here. Maybe this is an ST185 issue? I assume its the same as the track control arm / trailing arm that most of us have replaced the rubber bushes with polybushes on the ST205? Handling has been fine on road and track since I did mine. If it helps I can always quote the EPC when I get home :)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:17 pm 
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I didn't change the inner rear control arm bushes on the mk1....they weren't in the kit....are these the same as what is bveing described here?

I am curious myself now as to what ones these are... :D

Still....will be a few months before I splash out on some as I wanna buy shocks and springs at the same time. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:52 pm 
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Don - the spherical bearings are on the front and rear radius arms on the rear hub. I agree with Datajon, these should be left well alone!

Image

The lowest bush can be reaplced with a PU imho, but not the other two, this will advsersly affect handling

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:07 pm 
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Agree with Kris - Having already replaced teh spherical "rose jointed" style bearings on the ST185 I would conclude that the stock Toyota Part is significantly better than a wobbly bit of PU. Replacing the totally bleep rubber bush with PU however will ba a lot better and provide less rear end "steer" and "flex"

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:13 pm 
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Nice one.
I can order the pieces from Fensport....they list them.
If I fit all these bushes and shocks/springs would it be beneficial to add the extra front brace (turret to turret) and an underside arb front and/or rear....they seem simple enough to do.

Cheers for all the tech info guys... :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:41 pm 
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I guess Kris' pic is the 165 arrangement? I'm intrigued by the reference to 'spherical rose-jointed bearings'. Certainly with the 205 the stock track control arm (TCA) mountings are relatively soft black rubber so replacing them with poly bushes would reduce/eliminate camber and toe-in changes during hard cornering. In my Elise this led to severe bump steer so I replaced with pukka rose joints to fix the problem. BUT I wouldn't recommend that anybody do this on a car which is used as their daily drive. The ride would be very harsh and the bearings would wear out quite quickly.

Poly bushes are generally regarded as a good compromise for a car thats driven regularly on the road and occasionaly on track.

All this is rather academic though as the only poly bushes available for the ST205 are the trailing arm ones although I guess you could get some made up for the TCA's.

Kerplink!

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:50 pm 
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Steve - for the ARB bushes you can source them cheaper by going direct to Superflex although they are not expensive from Fensport.

ARB bushes are all generic - you just need to know the diameter of the bar required. Also the brackets required a slight modification on the front of my car, but the Fensport bushes are superflex aswell so would require the same mod.

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