www.gt4dc.co.uk
Maintain, Modify and DRIVE your GT-Four


It is currently Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:48 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:04 pm 
Offline
Junior WRC

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:39 pm
Posts: 838
Car Model: None
just wondering does it make that much difference in witch way the butterfly opens? just as I see it the air can only go out of the valves that are open and all so even though the turbo is blowing air in to the engine the piston is still sucking the air in like and N/A does, so carnt see it would make that much difference, but would like people thoughts on this

_________________
BRD Page

http://www.brooks-brd.co.uk/

https://www.facebook.com/Brooks.Racing.Dev


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:22 pm 
Offline
WRC
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Austria
Car Model: None
Hi,

makes no difference, also raising the ID of it ain't effects in a significant amount

greetz

_________________
KEEP COOL UNDER PRESSURE
Image
street legal?.....perhaps in tschibuti


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:01 am 
Offline
Club Staff
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:44 pm
Posts: 4067
Location: drinking devil fuel
Car Model: ST205
This is probably complete balderdash but..........
In my head the current way is probably best. I can imagine air being deflected upwards, swirling around the roof of the chamber putting it on a nice trajectory to go down the runners.
In my imagination reversing the butterfly will result in it swirling across the floor of the manifold and arriving at the ports travelling at 90 degrees to them

Given all the pressure waves and probable flow reversion in there its likely complete rubbish but there's always the old if it ain't broke principal (although you have a habit of fixing working stuff til it is broken lol)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:56 am 
Offline
Junior WRC

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:39 pm
Posts: 838
Car Model: None
I was just wondering as on a stock manifold witch is centre feed, the butterfly open down wards throwing air down into the manifold, but on the caldina manifold there throttle body opens up wards throwing the air up, so was just wondering if it did make any difference, I would of thought if it did make a difference it would only be when at part throttle, as when fully open there both flowing into the manifold the same way,

_________________
BRD Page

http://www.brooks-brd.co.uk/

https://www.facebook.com/Brooks.Racing.Dev


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:35 pm 
Offline
Club Staff
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:06 am
Posts: 4743
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Car Model: ST205
Years ago I'm sure I read somewhere that a Formula 1 team had cast direction arrows into the intake system so the air molecules know exactly which way to go :lol: Perhaps I should have checked if it was 1st April! :oops:

_________________
Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:05 pm 
Offline
Group B
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:13 pm
Posts: 3679
Location: Bournemouth
Car Model: None
two_OH_five wrote:
This is probably complete balderdash but..........
In my head the current way is probably best. I can imagine air being deflected upwards, swirling around the roof of the chamber putting it on a nice trajectory to go down the runners.
In my imagination reversing the butterfly will result in it swirling across the floor of the manifold and arriving at the ports travelling at 90 degrees to them

Given all the pressure waves and probable flow reversion in there its likely complete rubbish but there's always the old if it ain't broke principal (although you have a habit of fixing working stuff til it is broken lol)


errrm, unless I'm mistaken the throttle angles downwards as standard. On WOT the butterfly is pretty horizontal so wouldn't make any odds.

_________________
If at first you don't suck seed, try drier grain.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:52 am 
Offline
Club Staff
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:44 pm
Posts: 4067
Location: drinking devil fuel
Car Model: ST205
Bloody smartness :oops:

Maybe there would be a benefit then but I still don't know if the whole theory is a big pile of horse apples. Need someone with cfd


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:54 am 
Offline
Junior WRC

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:39 pm
Posts: 838
Car Model: None
if some 1 has any way of doing a flow chart on a pc or somthing that would be very interesting to see if it rely would make any difference and if it does by how much

_________________
BRD Page

http://www.brooks-brd.co.uk/

https://www.facebook.com/Brooks.Racing.Dev


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:58 pm 
Offline
Club Staff
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:44 pm
Posts: 4067
Location: drinking devil fuel
Car Model: ST205
I did try......
Two things became apparent :
1) My server doesn't have enough horsepower to run the software
2) I have no fircone idea where to start or what to do :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:52 pm 
Offline
WRC
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Austria
Car Model: None
Hi,

i'am sure on the caldina it is more due to the engine package and/or available space

directing an equal air flow is the manifolds main work i think :lol:

greetz

_________________
KEEP COOL UNDER PRESSURE
Image
street legal?.....perhaps in tschibuti


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:14 pm 
Offline
Junior WRC

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:39 pm
Posts: 838
Car Model: None
so would not that be the same on the centre feed? if the air was directed up into the manifold would that not do the same? just that on the 165-185-205 it opens down so throwing the air flow down, but as the air can only got out the valves that are open and pulled in by the pistons then surely it would not make any difference as all it doing is taking the pressured air from the chamber?

_________________
BRD Page

http://www.brooks-brd.co.uk/

https://www.facebook.com/Brooks.Racing.Dev


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:47 pm 
Offline
Club Staff
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:06 am
Posts: 4743
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Car Model: ST205
I'm not sure it will make any difference which way the throttle butterfly opens. I believe the airflow through the plenum reaches close to supersonic speeds at maximum power. As Sunny says, the plenum design is critical to good airflow distribution into the inlet runners. Toyota spent a lot of time, effort and money designing the plenums. I am sure the asymmetric layout is there for a purpose. My engine builder was always rather reluctant to consider using some of the aftermarket fabricated symmetrical plenums in case the feed to the runners might be uneven. This could result in some of the cylinders running lean with consequent risk of piston damage.

_________________
Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:12 pm 
Offline
WRC
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Austria
Car Model: None
Hi,

supersonic speed isn't that good, 1/3 of it is the boarderline on the inlet side of the turbocharger, and due to the pressure after the turbo the air flow speed drops down

more then 1/3 means to spent a lot of more power to the turbo to handle it or in other words, inefficient

greetz

_________________
KEEP COOL UNDER PRESSURE
Image
street legal?.....perhaps in tschibuti


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:14 pm 
Offline
Group N

Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 2:33 pm
Posts: 401
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Car Model: ST185
These posts on gt4oc may help with additional information:
http://www.gt4oc.net/forums/viewtopic.p ... ilit=st215
http://www.gt4oc.net/forums/viewtopic.p ... ilit=st215

_________________
GT Four Adovansu

"I want to enjoy the powerful and nimble agility behavior."

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:14 pm 
Offline
Club Staff
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:06 am
Posts: 4743
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Car Model: ST205
Just had a quick look at those (they are only visible to OC members). Most of the discussions are around the different plenum options rather than the throttle butterfly.

I did come across this interesting contribution from Dan:
Quote:
I've been doing a lot of playing with the CFD recently trying to find the nirvana of 3SGTE inlet manifolds, not a single one I've tested flows perfectly at all possible configuration i.e. if it flows well under boost, then it will be poor in n/a mode, even the variation in mass flow rate caused by changes in rpm have a big effect on how well the flow is balanced over all of the runners.
plus this interesting link http://www.profblairandassociates.com/p ... lmouth.zip

_________________
Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group