Darryl, would you recommend a remap to get the fuelling back on course, maybe a little more spark advance may be able to be added in?
of course i can view the afr on the day to ensure its looking about right compared to the RR gauge?

I left the Fuel pressure as was meaning the Toyota ecu was getting more fuel than expected and the ecu was in limp mode due to lack of CC Pump but i guess the idea of running this exercise was to prove the AFR gauge and that the system could actually deliver VERY rich AFR's?

Fuel pressure doesn't appear to be climbing quite as high as it potentially should? 20 psi of boost on top of base fuel pressure? i think I'm seeing a smidge under 70 psi?

_________________
Steve Gillies
ST-165 88 UK

www.GT4-Play.co.uk

Hmm, I think Ryan maps on the road with hii own AFR gauge and then sticks the car on Surrey Rolling Road for a power run (and I assume uses their AFR gauige?). Can you remember Steve?

If the above was the case and the second AFR gauge was actually used and checked I don't think the original AFR gauges could both be *bleep*.

A 3rd gear run should give lower transmission loss than a 4th gear run so I would expect the power to be higher at the wheels.

Steve - another factor - have you measured what your earth floating point voltage is at the ECU? The datalogit seems very sensitive to this and if your car has a poor electrical system and you have a high earth floating point the logged parameters on the datalogit coudl be very different to the read out on the AFR gauge. It could have resulted in your logging data being off as well as Ryans during mapping.

I think you have exhausted all simple checks. Fix all known issues and get the car remapped IMHO by someone who will spend some time with it. You can't sensibly map a car in a
couple of hours, let alone fault find.

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

The car was mapped on the rolling road and then tested on the road, i don't recall any tweaks being needed?



I haven't checked for this, Can you enlighten me please?



Do you have another Mapper in mind that is happy to map a PFC?

_________________
Steve Gillies
ST-165 88 UK

www.GT4-Play.co.uk

Well I'm not the expert on what you can adjust on the PFC to get the 13 range AFR back to something like 11.7 Steve's spreadsheet would be a starting point, but your call. A mapper of course doesn't guarantee a non blown engine, but I've not looked carefully at the timing, and without active knock control then too much will kill an engine very quickly. But I will say you want to get more fuel in once you start making power.

Yes test was to see that pump can deliver lots of litres/min which it clearly can and to confirm the wideband can read the fuel mix range we want to be able to get the fuelling to run to ( okay only on cold startup are we wanting 10:1 AFR type numbers )

As to only getting 70psi or just under, that's fine.... The 540 cc/min are specced at 43psi, so that's like 60% more cc each min and if that was on stock ecu then you might of had 100% duty cycle of 880ish cc out of each injector. The pump was doing very well I'd say.

4 * 880 = 3520 cc/min
3520 * 60 ( mins for an hour ) = 211 litres / hour

--
Darryl

_________________
--

Darryl

I'm happy how to get more fuel into the entire map by adjusting the injector settings. This of course won't help my fuel economy!

I'm tempted to switch O2 Feedback back on and see how the car runs?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

_________________
Steve Gillies
ST-165 88 UK

www.GT4-Play.co.uk

From what I gathered, you can add an overall correction to the map ? This would sort the high fuel loads. Ice change 13:1 down to say 11.7:1 then as you say light loads will be rich. Depending on the limits the o2 sensor can adjust fuelling it will try and bring the map in light ( closed loop ) running to 14.7:1 so its the avenue I would be looking at before its properly map adjusted / checked on a rolling road.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

_________________
--

Darryl

No real suggestions on mappers.

The only other guy I know that maps the pfc is Lyndon (ex rogue) apart from Ryan.

At the time when I bought mine a map was £650 ish and no one had been trading long enough to get a any confidence on their abilities hence I thought buying all the kit and self mapping was best.

I kind of lucked in that I exchanged services with a company who had a dyno dynamics set of rollers so I got a whole day on the rollers and basic teaching. ( this was after about 200 hours road mapping!).

On the rollers we moved the dunk to each load cell upto about 0.8 bar and the Did a series of sweeps at higher boost load cells. This took around 6-8 hours on the dyno and a whole tank of fuel!

There were still areas of the map that needed tweaking on the road and even subsequently some idle/fuel cut decel adjustments needed to be made to get a smooth car in traffic. I gained no more power from the dyno mapping but gained a whole heap of safety. On the dyno you can see the effect of an extra 1-2 degrees of timing, no real gain sometimes and no point adding it! You can't do this road mapping.

IMHO find someone who will teach you the basics and do it yourself. Read plenty of books before hand and invest in some decent mapping kit. You now have wideband, datalogit and fpr so you only need a decent set of det cans/knock detection and away you go.

Have a look at efi101 and see if they are running a learn how to map day soon if you have no intelligent friends

The first stage is to get the car safe, logging if afr and knock to ensure they are sensible. You the. Have some time to learn and keep an eye on things. Once you know the basics you can identify when/how an issue is occurring and act on it.

First stage is read the "mr telephone" books, corky bottom books and learn some basics of engine combustion dynamics. Learn equations relating to afr in relation to boost levels and rpm. Learn about cylinder pressure and how torque is produced and the peak/area under the curve pressures. Have a bash at relating piston speed/rpm in relation to flame front speeds ( only to get an idea of the effect on timing through the rev range). Learn how the engine is more efficient at certain load/rpm areas ( peak torque area) and the effect on not only injector squirt time but also injector duty cycle.

Once you understand the basics you can start to apply some tweaks.

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

Plus one from diceman. Everyone thinks a mapper can out perform Toyota....they will have spent many thousands of hours mapping the 3S-GTE engine. The only thing a mapper can do is use some of the safety margin Toyota put in to gain power. And its not going to be done / found in a few hours.
The 200 hours spent on dicemans engine whilst giving more power no doubt and while okay for UK use, I'm sure it might struggle when being used on high altitudes or excessively hot / cold temps that Toyota sold these car to regions around the world.
Good mapping takes a lot of time.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

_________________
--

Darryl

Agree darryl.
The pfc is a "tomy, my first ecu" and already has a base map that will start and run the car (pretty well and would be good if we got 102 Ron fuel!)

As such it is an ideal starting point. It is a bit clunky In operation at times compared to a proper ecu but it is so much easier to get started.

As such the mapping I did was more of a tweaking the base map.

I did try running in extreme cold/hot conditions for uk but as darryl says you will never match the number of hours Toyota put into mapping.

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

It is something that I'm interested in learning a lot more about, this has already started by means of this thread!
I'm better equipped now than I was two weeks ago to keep track of additional engine parameters as well as logging.

I'm happy with my choice of ECU and feel it fits the bill just nicely, I purchased it before they started commanding £600+!
I do have stand alone Launch control which many ecu's have built in along with flat shift, higher resolution etc etc
The hand controller is a very nice touch showing engine parameters too.

I don't feel the ECU is holding back, that's down to camshafts, turbo, injectors and of course ££££
I built the engine seven years ago, of which nearly four years it appears to of been running lean at, so chasing 400+ is not something I'm looking to do.

I plan on fitting the O2 sensor back and see what happens to the AFR's, only used for idle and cruise I believe?
The st205 ECU ran with out it, Oops!
I then will had some fuel to get to around 11.7, as mentioned by Darryl above.

A visit back to the rolling road and a map tweak will come in the coming weeks/months if needs be I hope.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

_________________
Steve Gillies
ST-165 88 UK

www.GT4-Play.co.uk

Couple more updates to the on going saga!

I fitted the O2 sensor and went out for a drive this afternoon, switching the Feedback control back on.

At idle the AFR is unchanged but as soon as im driving/cruising the AFR's were down in the 12-13's this is obviously why Ryan switched off the O2 sensor to map it at a leaner conditioner..
The O2 sensor is a ST165 unit which is probably around 9 years old, by no means has it done galactic miles though!
I have noticed with in the datalogit Settings Tab 1, O2 Feedback, Inj Correction setting this is currently set at 1.047, if this was adjusted maybe the O2 sensor AFR may make for better reading?

With the original EFi temp sensor in the fans kick in at a indicated 82', Not 85' as with the aftermarket Efi temp sensor which is also interesting.

_________________
Steve Gillies
ST-165 88 UK

www.GT4-Play.co.uk

Whilst new one out, do a resistance measure at room temp, then boiling water and if allowed to do it, once in fudge and then in freezer.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

_________________
--

Darryl

Sounds like O2 sensor was fubar. 1.047 is a normal setting. I can't remember off hand what it correlated to.

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

Ok Taken from the new EFI Temp sensor

Ambient:- 2.19 Ohms

Boiling Water:-0.60 Ohms

Fridge:- 3.35 Ohms

Freezer:- 12.26 Ohms

_________________
Steve Gillies
ST-165 88 UK

www.GT4-Play.co.uk

I have another i will try and see if there is any change.

_________________
Steve Gillies
ST-165 88 UK

www.GT4-Play.co.uk