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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:57 pm 
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Sunny wrote:
I got many info's from a TTE engineer
example:
the ST185 CS bonnet-vent up the turbo is ok, the ST205 vent not, the air flow break-away edge is not high enought so only 1/3 keeps air out of the engine bay and in 2/3 the air flow's back

Interesting....I guess this could be checked with wool tufts :) ....any volunteers?
Sunny wrote:
but a better example or idea is:
you can build anything like a channel from the bumper to the radiator

Always a god idea that!
Sunny wrote:
the C-One engine cooling panel ST205 is also therefor (back pressure will raise), and a break-away edge on the underside behind the radiator -> this is why the C-One under panel for the ST205 have the slots

I'm not totally convinced that C-One have designed the under-panel scientifically. The slots in the C-One panel look like they are simply to keep the flow of some cooling air to the underside of the engine/gearbox. The airflow regime under the front of the ST205 is likely to be quite 'dirty' unless you have modded the front to incorporate an air dam/splitter.

A recent magazine article by MIRA aerodynamics engineer Simon MacBeath described how the Noble M400 mid-engined GT car could be modified to improve the cooling airflow through the front mounted intercooler and radiator cores. Despite channeling the airflow using ducting to the core the biggest issue they had was the build up of static pressure behind the rad core. Unfortunately with the Noble the bodywork restricted the scope for improving the airflow behind the rad. With the ST205 the engine would get in the way! Many track spec Mitsubishi Evo's run with the rear of the bonnet propped open by 4-5cm to try and improve the extraction of hot air from under the bonnet.

I still think there is scope for improving the airflow with both the ST185 and ST205. I'll definitely be looking at this with my project but more as Phase 2. Phase 1 is actually getting the mechanical and electrical side of things running sweetly.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:34 pm 
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I've been in contact with thay TTE guy too. He's worked on various high positions within TTE but asked me not to tell anybody. Strange, but I respect it. He's not online anymore lately though.. Have lots of questions left.. :(

Regarding fans: When in front of the rad, at higher speeds they're blocking airflow instead of providing it. Pushers are indeed roughly 70% as effective as pullers. I mentioned the fact that the works ST185 had pushers too (as seen through the bumper) to which he replied along the lines of 'we learn every time too'. :)

Re: sunny - The sloped edge in front of the CS bonnet vent generates a vortex at 1/3 of the vents 'depth', sucking hot air out. The amount of air taken out wasn't mentioned.. The CS is bonnet therefore is aerodynamically more efficient than the 205. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:57 pm 
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Meurz wrote:
I've been in contact with thay TTE guy too. He's worked on various high positions within TTE but asked me not to tell anybody. Strange, but I respect it. He's not online anymore lately though.. Have lots of questions left.. :(


do we speak from the same guy :D
i also have many questions left :?

you can explain things better :D

ST185 CS 3/3
ST205 1/3

@ TrackToyFour

yes you can test the bonet vent, mount some wool tufts with adhesive tape in front of the vent and a friend should recording with a video camera :)

the best way to cool down the engine and to make intercooling better is to let so many air as possible flow throught the bumper, back-pressure in the front of the radiator and no pressure / much air flow out of the engine bay behind the radiator
(i have a short look at my c-one panel, and i'am true that it let air flow out)

the area of the bonnet-end to the front-glass is a area with over-pressure if you put out the gasket or open the bonnet air will flow in the engine bay -> less air-flow throught the bonnet

one thing come back in my brain:

if the thermostat is complete open and you drive high rpm, the hose from the radiator to the thermostat-housing will contract -> less water flow throught the engine
you can built a hose replecing out of stainless-steel

and

i don't know the water outlet from the head of the ST185 but the ST205 outlet is full of sensor's -> horrible for the water
the answer is to built spacer for the sensor's so that they are not any more in the direct flow of the water

these two things are to follow on my ST205 in april

i like to write about these technical things :D
but my english is not so good as is should :cry:

greetz

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:42 am 
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this is some fantastic information guys. thank you very much :-)

sounds like I have done it wrong lol as mr tte - you live & learn.
I like the idea of water outlet & SS rad pipes.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Diceman wrote:
sounds like I have done it wrong lol as mr tte - you live & learn.


what do you mean? :)

greetz

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:56 pm 
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erghh...
my fan location is bad -
Mr TTE also had bad fan location.

We both came up with bad design and then learnt :-)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:12 pm 
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got it :)
learning by doing or writing 8)

greetz

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:53 pm 
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I wouldn't worry too much about the rads being in front of the rad. Often its more a case of packaging in the available space. Witness the absence of rear mounted fans on this pic of Neal Bates TTE Group A ST205. You can see the fan mounting bolts and spreader panel washers on the back of the rad. This imples the fans are front mounted on this particular TTE ST205

Image

Image

The hot water feed exits the cylinder head through a bespoke fabricated water elbow NOT the OEM cast item with all the sensors

Image


The rally ST205 used a kevlar front undertray with NO cooling air intakes. I guess any hot air from the lower part of the engine bay will be extracted partly by the low pressure air at the rear of the panel and some via the bonnet

Image


The hot water exiting the top of the cylinder head runs through an oil/water heat exchanger then into the top of the end tank. This is much more efficient than the standard OEM 'doughnut' and the pressure drop is a lot less

Image

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:57 am 
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I don't believe water cooling capacity is an issue for one minute - especially for those with upgraded radiators
De-airation etc is a bigger consideration although the top-down stock setup does it'sbest to overcome this by expelling air naturally. The Koyo rad negates this :(


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:47 am 
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Am I missing something here? AFAIK the only facility that the stock rad has to expel air is the pressure cap and the Koyo R1958 aluminium rad works exactly the same.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:53 pm 
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the top tank of the stock rad has the cap at the highest point of the radiator so hopefully air will collect there abd small quantities will be expelled normally

On the koyo the to rad hose is connected via a hump section and there's nowhere for air to naturally collect


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:37 pm 
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TrackToyFour wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about the rads being in front of the rad. Often its more a case of packaging in the available space.

And knowledge available. My post is based on a TTE engineers knowledge and he told me back then they just didn't know any better.. All newer WRC cars (I've seen irl) use pullers. Check out the Corolla WRC:

Image

I'll try to make some rad pics of Impreza S12 and N14 setups next time I see them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:05 pm 
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two_OH_five wrote:
the top tank of the stock rad has the cap at the highest point of the radiator so hopefully air will collect there abd small quantities will be expelled normally

On the koyo the to rad hose is connected via a hump section and there's nowhere for air to naturally collect

OK, I've dragged out my side-by-side pics of the ST205 OEM rad and the Koyo R1958 Aluminium rad.

I still can't see the difference described :?

Image

Image

Image

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Meurz wrote:
......And knowledge available. My post is based on a TTE engineers knowledge and he told me back then they just didn't know any better.. All newer WRC cars (I've seen irl) use pullers.

I do actually agree that the most efficient position for the fan is behind the rad core. The point I was really trying to make was sometimes there is little flexibility on where to place the fans due to shortage of space. Unless you have workshop/technical facilities to substantially modify the rad mounting points you have to make the best of what you have.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:53 pm 
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I agree, also that Koyo works same as OEM, but the point I was making is that TTE had the workshop/technical facilities to substantially modify the rad setup for a puller setup. I think we're on the same line though. :lol:

I'm also looking forward to an update on your project car!

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