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 Post subject: 3S-GTE Cooling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:25 am 
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This is the start of a series of posts which will describe and illustrate the modifications required to the cooling system on the 3S-GTE when it is subjected to sustained periods of high rpm operation such as track days and racing. The focus will be predominantly on the Rev3 engine and the ST205 Toyota Celica GT-Four in particular although illustrations from other models will also be used.

The diagram below illustrates the standard engine cooling layout on the 3S-GTE as fitted to the ST205.

Image

The layout below is the design for my own track prepared ST205. This layout is similar to that used by the Toyota Team Europe ST205WRC and road car modifications by companies such as Fensport.

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TTE ST205WRC Header Tank
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TTE ST205WRC Header Tank
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TTE CorollaWRC Header Tank
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TTE ST185 (Kankunnen 1992 Rally Australia spec) showing oil/water cooler and radiator end tank vent line to header tank
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TTE ST185 (Kankunnen 1992 Rally Australia spec) showing oil/water cooler and radiator end tank vent line to header tank
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing vent/bleed line fitted to head/radiator hose and associated radiator end tank bleed lines
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing header tank and associated radiator end tank bleed lines
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing s/s braided block air bleed line at right hand side of block and horizontal hot water line running directly from the head to the thermostat housing.
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing s/s braided block air bleed line
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TTE ST185 (Sainz 1991 Acropolis Rally spec) showing s/s braided radiator end tank air bleed/expansion line
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TTE ST205WRC with a similar cooling configuration to the TTE ST185 above
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Fensport ST205 Swirl Pot and vent lines
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Fensport ST205 Header Tank Mk1. This was the first design tried but proved to have insufficient height causing it to overfill.
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Fensport ST205 Header Tank Mk2. This design used modified mounting brackets to gain an extra couple of centimetres in height. Compare and contrast with the TTE Header Tank at the top of this photo sequence.
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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2012 Van Diemen JL12 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


Last edited by TrackToyFour on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:03 am 
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Now, I could be wrong on this but........

The Fraud Mundano I have uses an expansion tank but doesn't have a swirl pot lol

In this system the radiator does not have a pressure cap. The overflow is directly connected back to the expansion and is hence a pressurized part of the system. This allows any air trapped in the radiator to escape back into the header. In fact it almost gives you a giant sized swirl pot ;)

I have a suspicion that this is why the TTE cars had a bleed on the top radiator hose too ;)

Another thing, although probably too late now since you have the expansion tank built lol, why not run the blanked/looped pipes back to the expansion?
Seems to me that would give even more ways to de-airate the system. Just a thought

And what's with the block drain. Is that standard or an addition :?:


Last edited by two_OH_five on Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:07 am 
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intreasting layout, not quite how i would go about it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:13 am 
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what provisions have been installed to c/head for improved venting

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:18 am 
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will the electric water pump cause some back feed up the oil heater/cooler return pipe..thus causing problems..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:49 am 
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Steve, with the ST205 system don't forget that it is a header tank system reliant on gravity for recirculation of the coolant...unlike the OEM system which, as you know is a self-draining expansion tank open to atmosphere. The modified ST205 system is fully pressurised so that it bleeds positively from the highpoints in the system up to the header tank.This will only work if the system is pressurised.

The TTE cars all use end tanks on the rad NOT top and bottom tanks and there is a bleed on the top of one or both tanks which vents into the header. I am wondering if this explains why they use an end tank design?

I don't think I'd get much extra value from running the blanked/looped lines back to the header as the main coolant outlet from the head goes directly into the swirl pot where there is a vent to the header. The de-aerated coolant then exits at the bottom of the swirl pot into the top tanks of the radiator. Most of the TTE cars run a vent or bleed from this hose directly to the header and dispense with the use of a swirl pot.

The block drain is not on all TTe blocks but is a feature of Marks ex-Carlos 185. Seems a useful feature to ensure little or no air gets trapped in the block. Its not venting to the header but is simply a means of bleeding trapped air manually.

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GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2012 Van Diemen JL12 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:56 am 
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Jon, nothing extra has been done to the head regarding venting as this will hopefully be achieved by running the coolant directly into the swirl pot as it exits the head.
I'd agree that positioning of the electric pump will be critical as I'm concerned to build enough pressure in the block and head to prevent localised boiling and steam pockets forming. Adrian has already fitted an electric pump on his Gen 7 but I'm not sure exactly where he has positioned it. He is seeing temps. of 75deg on the rollers with his setup. Track might be a bit hotter tho :twisted:

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Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2012 Van Diemen JL12 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:23 am 
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you have changed the flow around though the oil exchanger from the stock diagram.

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project six million dollar 185, faster, stronger, lighter than before.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:27 am 
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TrackToyFour wrote:
Steve, with the ST205 system don't forget that it is a header tank system reliant on gravity for recirculation of the coolant...unlike the OEM system which, as you know is a self-draining expansion tank open to atmosphere. The modified ST205 system is fully pressurised so that it bleeds positively from the highpoints in the system up to the header tank.This will only work if the system is pressurised.

That's kind of the point I was making. By fitting a 2.5bar cap on the rad and a 2 bar cap on the expansion you've ensured that air will not bleed from the rad. When the system exceeds 2 bar the expansion tank will overflow, not the rad. In fact it's unlikely the rad cap will ever vent because pressure will always be relieved by the 2 bar cap on the pressurized header jobby

In the Fraud setup the radiator does not have a cap. It has a simple bleed off from the top tank and hence forms an enormous swirl pot. When the engine is running you can actually see a constant waterflow from the top of the rad back to the header (which is pressurised) ensuring that the rad is always bled. To simulate this you'd have to weld a simple plate to the top of the rad leaving the radiator "overflow" open to the system. there would then be a single cap maintaining pressure which is, I think, what you want to achieve in this sort of system

It looks identical to your system except there's no radiator cap ;)

TrackToyFour wrote:
The TTE cars all use end tanks on the rad NOT top and bottom tanks and there is a bleed on the top of one or both tanks which vents into the header. I am wondering if this explains why they use an end tank design?

Good point, I remember this now. Must have been the 185s that had a banjo fitted to the top rad hose where it goes over the top of the straight air intake. This could just be a water feed to the turbo but I'm sure it goes back to the expansion tank

TrackToyFour wrote:
The block drain is not on all TTe blocks but is a feature of Marks ex-Carlos 185. Seems a useful feature to ensure little or no air gets trapped in the block. Its not venting to the header but is simply a means of bleeding trapped air manually.

Interesting, very interesting........

As another thought, why not run this back to the header tank. It would provide automatic venting of the block during both fill and operation
Of course you'd have to make the pipe small so that it didn't bypass the radiator with large amounts of coolant. Just enough to bleed air ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:38 am 
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datajon wrote:
you have changed the flow around though the oil exchanger from the stock diagram.


Good point there Jon :!: I hadn't even picked that up

I assume that the connection should actually go to the other side of the water pump otherwise you'll be trying to drive water down it from both ends!

This would also make more sense in the original flow diagram although it's rather hard to tell from that picture where the water bypass hose actually flows into the system :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:37 pm 
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Quote:
will the electric water pump cause some back feed up the oil heater/cooler return pipe

I think Don is just going to loop this out and back in at the block - Don?

The water flow is out of the block, upto the water line by the exhaust manifold and then into the thermostat housing - think your diagram needs a tweek?

It would seem that it would be possible just to cap both the input and output to the oil filter? This would then also increase flow through the block?

Quote:
intreasting layout, not quite how i would go about it

Gotta love your shy comments Jon! Would you like to share your thoughts? :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:49 am 
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I've added a selection of photos to my original post. These illustrate the various solutions used in the TTE and Fensport cars. Hopefully this will enable my diagram to make more sense now that people can see the real world mods

Kris wrote:
I think Don is just going to loop this out and back in at the block - Don?

Yes, I do hope it is possible to do this Kris as I want to build as much pressure in the block and head as possible so I can avoid local hot spot boiling. My diagram doesn't show this as I wasn't quite sure on the implementtion details. I'll update it once we've done the work.

Quote:
The water flow is out of the block, upto the water line by the exhaust manifold and then into the thermostat housing - think your diagram needs a tweek?

Not quite sure whats wrong with my diagram Kris? There are two water outlets from the head (excluding the blanked off lines). One goes to the radiator top hose and the other goes directly back to the thermostat housing like you describe. The latter ensures that coolant will circulate through the block and head even when the thermostat is closed although I'm actually using a restrictor not a thermostat.

Quote:
It would seem that it would be possible just to cap both the input and output to the oil filter? This would then also increase flow through the block?

I presume you are referring to the oil/water heat exchanger. If I were to block the input and output to the oil FILTER this could have expensive consequences :lol: I'm not familiar with the exact oil inflow and outflow from the oil/water device in the block thats why I've simply by-passed it as per the TTE solution.

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Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2012 Van Diemen JL12 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:46 am 
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Hmmm, wasn't my imagination then. Notice the air bleed in the top rad hose which appears to be heading in the general direction of the header tank ;)

I still can't see the value of taking the radiator overflow to the header tank though other than to possible stop coolant peeing everywhere if really bad stuff happens. If you were to fit a (say) 0.9bar cap there then if the pressure exceeds 0.9bar it will bleed air off from the rad to the header tank, functioning like the end tank takeoffs on the TTE cars

Don wrote:
Not quite sure whats wrong with my diagram Kris? There are two water outlets from the head (excluding the blanked off lines). One goes to the radiator top hose and the other goes directly back to the thermostat housing like you describe. The latter ensures that coolant will circulate through the block and head even when the thermostat is closed although I'm actually using a restrictor not a thermostat.


I think you have the position of the restrictor and the pump reversed
In your diagram the thermostat (ignoring the restrictor for now) closing would prevent any flow round the block I think. If there was any it would be in the other direction via the water bypass

However, if you swap the two around then the pump can still pump water through the block via the bypass hose
Plus this arrangement would be more in line with the real world where the stat is in the end of the radiator hose effectively. At least I think this ir right but it is 1:45am lol :( :( lol

Don wrote:
I presume you are referring to the oil/water heat exchanger. If I were to block the input and output to the oil FILTER this could have expensive consequences I'm not familiar with the exact oil inflow and outflow from the oil/water device in the block thats why I've simply by-passed it as per the TTE solution.

Badger Adrian a little more
The Caldina has a "simple" blanking plate fitted here. I had pictures of it before the great crash of 2006 :(
If anyone has an EPC that covers the ST215 it should be apparent there ;)

But, IMO, removing the oil warmer will increase oil pressure and flow since those doghnut (mmmmmmmmm, doghnuts aaaaaaaarrgghhh) cooler things are generally agreed to be fairly restrictive


Last edited by two_OH_five on Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:16 am 
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some intreasting insight, between tte and fensport..

i would not use the fensport setup as a bench mark.. it nothing like tte..in more ways than 1

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project six million dollar 185, faster, stronger, lighter than before.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:29 am 
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Seems to me that don is definatly heading in the right direction with this, however i might be completely wrong but i have heard any mention of what temps you are looking at holding under load. :roll:
Don what temp are you wanting to see when you are under track conditions ?
I WAS running anything close to 98/99 deg's on the old engine and the fan was cutting in @ 98 deg's this cooling setup was obviously way to high.

On this engine i am running a lower temp stat and a fan controller taken from the hot end of the head. I now have not seen temps over 90 deg's with the fan set @ 88 Deg's even in traffic.

Don are you using a fan controller ? (ecu controlled ?)

I believe tony is running a simular set up to adrian and the last time i was being nosey he was having overheating problems after each drag run. :cry:

Don keep up the good work, it's really good that you are willing to share this info with the rest of us. someone is always willing to pick holes when you try something new. excellent development work Don.
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