I had a little bit more time to look at the map last night but still can't get access to my old maps as I have archived them on a NAS box with a special username I forgot!

Now I am not convinced this is the cause of the issue but may be an indicator of other issues I think.

Phil's map runs similar injector duty at high boost as Dans yet makes much less power (I know dan is running 45psi base fuel pressure as opposed to Phil's probably standard 38psi so this would probably account for it as it gives around an extra 15% of fuel), It looks like Phil is running at around 18-19ms of fuel at high boost/rpm (say 6K-7K and 1.2 bar) which is 100% duty cycle at 6400rpm but Phil has only 11.8:1 AFR!. As a guide I was running around 1.3-1.35 bar on 540cc injectors with standard fuel pressure and running mega rich of 10.5:1 to 10.8:1. For his car to be, what seems anyhow, running out of fuel at 297 bhp means there is a fuelling issue - pump or FPR?

However - and here is the other oddity -Phil's map is running less injector duty at vacuum positions and typical cruise positions of the map. If the AFR is still good here without any O2 feedback we have a lack of fuel at top end/boost but loads at vacuum - this is where my question about the FPR plumbing being correct to establish if it is maintaining base pressure WRT manifold pressure.

From the maps it is running out of fuel and I wonder if the timing has been compensated a little for a lean mixture? The timing map needs to be corrected for whatever base timimng Phil is running which is unknown at present.

The above is making me think that there are issues that need sorting before it should have been mapped but you only know this after you can monitor stuff with an aftermarket ECU!

and BTW Dans & Phils maps are identical on the INJ only map or "target AFR" map so Steves comments are valid for Phils car (Dans does not have O2 feedback enabled so no issue here). I always ran with Stoich target or even leaner at cruise positions so I don't think this is the issue. It may however be that the fuelling at high/mid RPM at highish vacuum points (after letting off throttle from a blast part of the map) are too lean initially and it takes the O2 feedback to richen it up to stoich. Only logging with O2 feedback switched off will tell.

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

Comparing the ignition maps - unless I'm missing something, Dans map is running a fair bit more advance at low/mid RPM at the 1/1.2 bar boost. This may be down to lower charge temps from the FMIC. It's possible that base could mean that actually Phils is running more advance at higher RPM. I would have thought this would have given more power at the top rather than less though.

Another thought I just had, Phil's cold air box was fairly close round the filter and flexible enough it could get pulled onto it by the suction. This may then cause a fair restriction at the top end which may not show up on the VE map if the fuel pump is also struggling.

Going back to the weak mixture on lift off. I'm wondering if the rail pressure is dropping on the high boost steady state and the map will compensate. Lifting off will drop to an area mapped with full pressure at steady state. This will then leave it weak untill the fuel pump has brought the pressure back up.

If I'm thinking of the right car (I've looked at many recently ) the FPR plumbing is correct but has a T piece for a gauge. I would suggest removing the T from this line and going in on another manifold port (not the MAP sensor one either). I doubt this will make a difference but worth trying.

I would be inclined to fit the new fuel pump ASAP and see what effect this has. Fitting an AFR gauge will allow monitoring, and also allow remapping of the fuel base map to correct for the increased pressure.

_________________
If at first you don't suck seed, try drier grain.

You are correct but we don't know what the static timing is set at on either hence I glossed over this aspect.



You could be right on the rail pressure dropping due to fuel pump causing a dynamic lean condition.

FPR plumbing appeared to be OK but as you rightly say a t-piece was coming off it for a boost gauge.

New fuel pump, wideband fitting and some re-plumbing of vac hoses is a good place to start and then re-install Power Fc and start logging.

As indicated on Saturday I would put standard ECU back in for now until issues are resolved and turn boost down.

I had also wondered about issues caused by turbo surge and/or the larger volume of air in the vac hoses to FPR not responding as quickly as they normally would but again it is theorising on possibilities - we need to log a healthy engine/fuel pump/fpr to start with before any real diagnosis or rectification of the map IMHO.

PS Also replace fuel filter when doing pump and check voltage at fuel pump incase of poor/corroded connections meaning low voltage at pump.

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

IGN maps compared - dans is more advanced - this shows how much more it is advanced in each cell

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

Working on the theory that Ryan starts with a 'standard' base map then tweaks to suit the car, I'm surprised the the difference in shape between the 2 ignition maps. I would expect to tweak the 'on boost' ignition cells to just below det. and map the fueling individually for most cells.

I'm wondering if he's revised his base map since Dans was mapped originally, and if so why.

_________________
If at first you don't suck seed, try drier grain.

I fitted the new fuel pump to a replacement tank on Sunday as mine has a leak.
Just need to swap the tanks and fuel filter when I get chance when the filter arrives.

Interestingly, I have not seen knock over 33 since Saturday which I think is safe as the alarm threshold is 60 in the ECU?

_________________
[color=#000080]ST205 WRC 1994
Hybrid turbo
Apexi AVC-R
Apexi Power FC (Not being used ATM)
Apexi Power commander (Not being used ATM)

Just a thought but if a few of the perps in this thread are parked in Dans back garden Friday night might this not be a good time to do some looking/logging/poking before starting on the hooch and donning the wobbly boot

If Phil's car is pre-plumbed I can supply a wideband and I have a lappy with the right software. The only thing I can't rember is the setting to plug my wideband into the pfc

Just a thought but if a few of the perps in this thread are parked in Dans back garden Friday night might this not be a good time to do some looking/logging/poking before starting on the hooch and donning the wobbly boot

If Phil's car is pre-plumbed I can supply a wideband and I have a lappy with the right software. The only thing I can't rember is the setting to plug my wideband into the pfc

All makes very interesting reading.

I can quickly see our friday night camp in the woods being turned into a fixing gt4's session, *bleep* up and sleeping on my folks floor lol.

As I was saying mate, that threshold needs to come down. You need measure the background noise and set the threshold just above it. Lower the boost to as low a level as pos to be sure you're aren't getting any knock, look at the max knock reading and then set the threshold a few points above that.

Also, bridge your fuel pump to run at constant 12v for now. FP and B+ in the diag port.

Also, make sure to check your HT leads are all within spec, the rotor arm and dizzy cap! The problems on boost seem very spark related to me....

FWIW, having been out in the car (but not driven it), the drivability doesn't seem toooooooo bad. Clearly the map needs some refinement but as someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, what do you expect for the time spent? Mapping a car properly takes many sessions over the course of all seasons.

Just spoke to the shop that replaced part of my rattling exhaust, and he confirmed ho replaced the box under the rear seat with another straight through box, so that should not be a restriction.

Also, the car was mapped open with no bung in.

I put the bung in a few days later to save me ears, but did not notice any difference in performance at all.

Running with it out again Aaaaaagh

Still no noticeable difference in performance with or without.

Also, can anyone recommend a good but reasonably priced AFR set-up?

_________________
[color=#000080]ST205 WRC 1994
Hybrid turbo
Apexi AVC-R
Apexi Power FC (Not being used ATM)
Apexi Power commander (Not being used ATM)

I quite like the Innovate kit and the new "box with wires" for logging and the analogue display IMHO is a good combo. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/INNOVATE-G2-W ... 439f6e140f

I have an old LM-1 which still works after 7-8 years.

Their are a few such as Zeitronix and AEM that I have heard good reports on.

My favourite is this (which I have lurking in a cupboard somewhere) but it is expensive and no longer made IIRC http://www.nengun.com/hks/a-f-knock-amplifier

Budget for a new sensor every now & again though at about £65 each.


OH - Do you have a downpipe with a spare boss for a wideband sensor?

_________________
JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

I am not sure TBH, is was lagged when I bought the car, need to have a look.

If it just need drilling and tapping (what size?) I could probably do that OK.

Fuel filter ordered from TCB along with drop links all round

Oh, and will it be OK to fit the new petrol pump and filter?

I take it it won't over fuel?

_________________
[color=#000080]ST205 WRC 1994
Hybrid turbo
Apexi AVC-R
Apexi Power FC (Not being used ATM)
Apexi Power commander (Not being used ATM)

It will over fuel a little on the standard ECU. May well overfuel more on the PFC.

If I were in your shoes I'd re-fit the standard ECU for rallyday then fit the fuel pump, check it runs ok then refit the PFC and start diagnosing.

I have the following wideband in my 205 which I like as it gives both digital readout and analogue bargraph.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120928597510? ... 1497.l2649

_________________
If at first you don't suck seed, try drier grain.

Crap..................Noooooooooooooo

I would rather blow the engine

Only joking

Good advice thanks

Coming up Friday?

_________________
[color=#000080]ST205 WRC 1994
Hybrid turbo
Apexi AVC-R
Apexi Power FC (Not being used ATM)
Apexi Power commander (Not being used ATM)