As some of you will know I spent quite soem mapping my car witha dead chargecooler pump, I have since been kindly lent a chargecooler pump by a fellow member. I have been offered a full ST205 chargecooler setup which I have agreed to buy as was reasonably cheap and I needed teh pump.

Considering my target bhp and boost pressure is likely to be circa 350bhp and 1.5 bar the ST205 chargecooler setup will not impose a restriction on teh BHP at this level, however on track I knwo soem have had rising inlet temps suspected to be due to the heat rejection rate of the water radiator to atmosphere not being sufficient.

Seeing as I will have a spare chargecooler radiator I was thinking about a dual radiator setup. First the water passes through the rearward rad then onto the front rad for final cooling in the coolest air. This could also be used with a swirl pot incorporating an externmal reservoir to add soem super cooled ice prior to critical runs?

I can see that teh systems main weakness may be complexity, weight will also be increased.

The benefits will be that it will have a greater volume of water to try and heat befor ethe setup becomes inefficient and it will also have teh majority of teh extra water in the water cooling section of teh system. It will not be so effected by heat soak, will not induce as much lag as an FMIC.

Any thoughts/comments?

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JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

As to thoughts I'd have thought that maybe just increasing the size/efficiency of the stock system's main IC rad would be the obvious first place to try? I know that people like AndyCaCa have had success with just a larger IC rad on their stock systems, albeit on the 165. It would certainly be lighter and easier to work with than a twin rad set up though IMHO.

I know Pace have taken a long time to sort the rads GB for the OC but the quality of workmanship is spot on Maybe approaching them with this as a project might be worth a go? I'm pretty sure there are a number of us that would like to give this a go.

Either that or just ditch it all and go the FMIC route - considering the nature of your ECU I would have thought that this may have proved a better solution in this case perhaps even?

Cheers,
Mark

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Mark - 94 Red Jap ST205 WRC - Gone but not forgotten
'06 Blue Merc E320 CDi v6
'89 Mica Blue MR2 Mk1b restoration project
"Don't make me come over there"

I know a top bloke who fitted a 205 charge cooler into his 185 "aka piggy"... He had a custom rad made which was said to be always luke warm and no hotter even after a mega thrash:? Only that nutter would stuff his finger into potentially very hot water I have the same setup here waiting to go onto my 185. Except I have a metro rad I may or may not be fitted, depending on whether I need to remove my ac or not! not being the winning factor!! That little setup is said to be good for 400bhp by most also adds potentially 25bhp extra over the stock ic


tone

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Now offering:
Servicing & light body repairs *qualified mechanic*
185 & 205 under-bonnet battery relocation kits
CT26B Turbo clocking bracket *CT20 version soon*
Metal polishing service *Up to show standards

Mark, the idea behind using the two rads was to save making one large one. essentially will result in teh same thing. thing. I was originally thinking FMIC, this may well be the way I chose but thought I would discuss first . Getting a custom rad made up may well be a good move for the interim level before a FMIC. It is just teh cost that woudl possibly put my off.

Tone, I have indeed seen the radiator tony had made up. It was similar size to the st205 standard version if maybe slightly thicker. THe main reason he had it made was because teh setup he bought was from a written off car an dthe chargecooler rad wa\s bent beyond belief. The general water temp within teh top mount section is tepid as long as the car hasnt been heat soaked or the chargecooler pump has broken!

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JP
GT4DC Treasurer

Grey St185 RC
Silver BMW E46 M3
Multicolour yawn Honda VFR400
Silver Honda Civic Type-R

Ahhh I see. I only went to 205 charge cooler route as...

a. It was cheaper than FMIC at the time
b. Charge coolers work in traffic/towns

my main drawback is I don't want to loose the aircon, as I'm not fussed about weight being I will never rally my car. So I am guessing I'll go the charge cooler route personally now I have most of the gubbings.

_________________
Now offering:
Servicing & light body repairs *qualified mechanic*
185 & 205 under-bonnet battery relocation kits
CT26B Turbo clocking bracket *CT20 version soon*
Metal polishing service *Up to show standards

Personally I think that a FMIC is the way forward.

Whislt the stock system seems pretty good, as we know this is limited for track use and is overwhelmed when you start throwing lots of hot air at it.

Also, worth considering the WTA setup has 2 inefficiencies built into it, i.e.

1. Heat echange from turbo air to IC core
2. Heat exchange from Water radiator to cooling air

With a FMIC this is only 1 heat exchange process.

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Kris
95 ST205 - slept for 10 years, now waking up...
Avensis
http://www.gtfours.co.uk
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Turbocharging - the replacement for displacement

JP, If you want to track your ST205 @ 350bhp then based on my experiences WI will do the job of controlling plenum temps. I know you're not keen on WI so going FMIC would seem to be the only way forward for you. The stock WTA setup doesn't seem to be capable of controlling plenum temps under track conditions. I shall be including a WTA temp sensor in my MXL configuration although I believe Mike may have a temp sensor in his system and thus have collected some data? I'll be going FMIC eventually but its not top of my list at the moment.

What is more of an issue is the engine cooling. If you run 350bhp on track the stock setup will pressurise and activate the rad pressure cap so that it fills the expansion tank to overflowing. In extremis you will lose most of your coolant and the block will overheat and split (I'm pretty sure this is what happened to Tony C's ST205) You will need to fit a swirl pot and pressurised expansion tank to address this. I had another good session with Adrian and the Fensport gang discussing this at Santa Pod today. Adrian says he is not surprised at what happened to my cooling system at Silverstone so a cooling system upgrade is definitely my winter project now

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Don
GT4DC Chairman
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp

Just a quick post on this as I haven't much time, I have warnings setup on my dash display at 105 deg C for the main engine water temp and 45 deg C for the chargecooler fluid.

On track its always the chargecooler fluid that goes out of spec first. On the road I typically see around 30-33 degrees in the chargecooler and 88-90 main water.

I think FMIC is the way to go - improving the chargecooler significantly is going to require lots of alterations behind the bumper - increases weight and complexity.

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GT4DC Events Co-ordinator
1996 ST205 UK

i was thinking of this too as i dont want to lose my a/c ,is it not possable to just put a thicker rad in,holds more coolent ect ,

one more thing,is there no way to keep the a/c? just route the pipes around abit ect?

sorry to hijack guys

I don't believe you have to lose he AC with a front mount.

Many do but with somee thought all the rads will still fit

i personally have fitted a 780mm x 320mm x 80mm forge motorsport core and have retained the oem p/s and transmission coolers whilst retaining the fogs... it is possible with alot of work, the fit i did was to slant the ic forward slightly as opposed to straight improve distance between the ic and the ac rad, it is possible to do with a large space gap, i.e approx 6-10 inches.

i personally feel from track use and opposed use to a cc with similar mods that the intake temps and reliabillty is superior and the lag associated with a good pipe route makes a minimal pressure drop and the performance gain and lower intake temp more than makes up for the slight most increase in lag

Hello Kris

Having checked out the CS rally car at Goodwood
could you comment on any upgrades that Toyota made to the chargecooler?

Thanks

Stephen

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1993 Carlos Sainz 2939, Forged, Apexi RX6B turbo with external wastegate. MOTEC M4, AFPR and 800cc injects. 3" exhaust, +1mm valves.ST205 cams. Rays 8.5" x 17". 205 rear subframe. Bilstein coilovers. 205 brakes.TRD diff

Hi,

there are a few things you could do to improve the setup

- more liquid
- more water proportion*
- higher flow water pump
- intercooler
- intercooler pre-radiator

* i run 1:1,5 + 2% millers extra cool, anti freeze lowers the heat exchange rate and water have more effective heat capacity, i also run the engine with the same liquid

Kris, for sure 2 heat exchange progresses are bad for the efficienty
but the turbo charger have to work more (death volume of the system) in a air/air system which means the air is hotter which means the radiator have to work more

a WTA-system is not hurtful (just the price), especially if you use a TTE core, 1,2bar with oem toyota boost controll

toykid, i can say it about the ST205: TTE intercoolers looks like equal but they are complete different
have a look -> http://gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2908&start=165

greetz

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KEEP COOL UNDER PRESSURE

street legal?.....perhaps in tschibuti

Sunny > Nice touch with the TTE chargecooler core, I was happy enough with my RC exhanging a 6 row core for the ST205 7 row core, 8's just greedy

I've got one of these winging it's way to me from the the US - a chargecooler specific pre rad measuring 660x180x90mm, nice and thick but not too tall to choke off the engine rad. Have also bought some rigid carbon fibre sheet which I'll use to remake the undertrays and add some baffles for the various radiators



Should help a little.

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'92 GT-Four RC - Project Rufus - something of a mover.
'05 Audi A3 3.2 V6 Quattro S Line - not bad for a daily.

Hello Mook

What are your thoughts about undertrays and airflow?

Stephen

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1993 Carlos Sainz 2939, Forged, Apexi RX6B turbo with external wastegate. MOTEC M4, AFPR and 800cc injects. 3" exhaust, +1mm valves.ST205 cams. Rays 8.5" x 17". 205 rear subframe. Bilstein coilovers. 205 brakes.TRD diff